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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9335281" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So... building a fighter to be good at combat, means that they can only be good at combat. And that is because of the players, not because of the game design.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... you are making my point for me? </p><p></p><p>I mean, you are literally sitting here telling me that are level 15 the party is facing SKELETONS, CR 1/4 skeletons. Level 18 has the very scary CR 5 Vampire spawn, surely a terrifying fight. </p><p></p><p>Heck, you are listing CR 5 Mindflayers as something with "significant condition immunities, Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance". Yes, they have magic resistance, they are also melee monsters (other than their mind blast they have no ranged options innately), a strength of +0 and a DEx of +1. Even with advantage, Web from a 17th level wizard should have a DC of 19, they are just not going to be able to resist that. </p><p></p><p>I mean seriously, that level 17 list doesn't have a single monster with a CR higher than 10. So... why does the legendary resistance matter? You keep acting like the party is only ever going to face foes with high saves and legendary resistance, then offer a list that showcases that the majority of enemies... won't have those things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wut? How is "Not being able to move, all attacks against you have advantage, all of your attacks have disadvantage, you have disadvantage on dex saves"... not very bad for a lot of enemies? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... 40% chance to restrain the dragon, preventing all melee attacks against the party. For the cost of a 2nd level spell, at 17th level. Which then would necessitate a full action and no attacks from the dragon to have a 50/50 shot of breaking free (can't legendary resistance that). </p><p></p><p>In exchange, the fighter has triggered their bonus action which is much more limited, gave up two of their three attacks, is locked in melee with the dragon, and can only attack if they have a hand free. This means that they are not using a shield, so, without assuming magical weapons they have an AC of 18. Adult Blue Dragons have +12 to hit, and even if they still have disadvantage they only need to roll a 6, on three attacks. Add in all the ways the dragon has to knock the fighter prone or blind them... the dragon can even that fight up pretty easily. And in exchange, he can't move, but he also is harder to target with ranged attacks, meaning everyone has to get into melee with him. Which means he can do the same things to them that he can do to the fighter. </p><p></p><p>Sure, the dragon is going to lose the fight. But it is CR 16 vs a level 18 party. Of course it should lose that fight!</p><p></p><p>Also, sidenote, +7 vs +10 with advantage is rough for them, but I'm not sure it is 90% chance to fail. And, if you just give the dragon athletics proficiency that becomes +12 vs +10 with advantage, and that is much more even.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If casters are always, by design, more powerful. What is the point of the martial characters?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So what? Being weaker at one specific level doesn't mean that they aren't stronger the rest of the time. And, again, the problem is generally indicated at higher levels, not things like level 3 or 4 where casters are much less capable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it isn't like that. Because even if they can dunk, a basketball team doesn't have dedicated roles. They aren't just better than me, they are better than me at all the things I built my character to be good at. Simply because of their access to magic. And my only solution currently is to either work on homebrew, or alter my character concept by getting magic. </p><p></p><p>It isn't petty or pouting to be frustrated that the game isn't better designed to make this less likely to happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because they are optional.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9335281, member: 6801228"] So... building a fighter to be good at combat, means that they can only be good at combat. And that is because of the players, not because of the game design. So... you are making my point for me? I mean, you are literally sitting here telling me that are level 15 the party is facing SKELETONS, CR 1/4 skeletons. Level 18 has the very scary CR 5 Vampire spawn, surely a terrifying fight. Heck, you are listing CR 5 Mindflayers as something with "significant condition immunities, Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance". Yes, they have magic resistance, they are also melee monsters (other than their mind blast they have no ranged options innately), a strength of +0 and a DEx of +1. Even with advantage, Web from a 17th level wizard should have a DC of 19, they are just not going to be able to resist that. I mean seriously, that level 17 list doesn't have a single monster with a CR higher than 10. So... why does the legendary resistance matter? You keep acting like the party is only ever going to face foes with high saves and legendary resistance, then offer a list that showcases that the majority of enemies... won't have those things. Wut? How is "Not being able to move, all attacks against you have advantage, all of your attacks have disadvantage, you have disadvantage on dex saves"... not very bad for a lot of enemies? So... 40% chance to restrain the dragon, preventing all melee attacks against the party. For the cost of a 2nd level spell, at 17th level. Which then would necessitate a full action and no attacks from the dragon to have a 50/50 shot of breaking free (can't legendary resistance that). In exchange, the fighter has triggered their bonus action which is much more limited, gave up two of their three attacks, is locked in melee with the dragon, and can only attack if they have a hand free. This means that they are not using a shield, so, without assuming magical weapons they have an AC of 18. Adult Blue Dragons have +12 to hit, and even if they still have disadvantage they only need to roll a 6, on three attacks. Add in all the ways the dragon has to knock the fighter prone or blind them... the dragon can even that fight up pretty easily. And in exchange, he can't move, but he also is harder to target with ranged attacks, meaning everyone has to get into melee with him. Which means he can do the same things to them that he can do to the fighter. Sure, the dragon is going to lose the fight. But it is CR 16 vs a level 18 party. Of course it should lose that fight! Also, sidenote, +7 vs +10 with advantage is rough for them, but I'm not sure it is 90% chance to fail. And, if you just give the dragon athletics proficiency that becomes +12 vs +10 with advantage, and that is much more even. If casters are always, by design, more powerful. What is the point of the martial characters? So what? Being weaker at one specific level doesn't mean that they aren't stronger the rest of the time. And, again, the problem is generally indicated at higher levels, not things like level 3 or 4 where casters are much less capable. No, it isn't like that. Because even if they can dunk, a basketball team doesn't have dedicated roles. They aren't just better than me, they are better than me at all the things I built my character to be good at. Simply because of their access to magic. And my only solution currently is to either work on homebrew, or alter my character concept by getting magic. It isn't petty or pouting to be frustrated that the game isn't better designed to make this less likely to happen. Because they are optional. [/QUOTE]
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