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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9335896" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So the words "bounded accuracy" have no meaning to you?</p><p></p><p>Tell me, have you actually seen a fighter try to solo, say, 8 skeletons? More? I had a DM once who was very new and tried to make unique "nightmare" challenges for each player. For the Cleric he created a literal endless horde zombies. Cleric was stuck fighting them while the rest of the party did their own things. The cleric player was BORED. It was too easy. Sure, they were burning through spell slots in the nightmare, but they were untouchable for multiple minutes of continuous fighting, because they could slaughter zombies by the dozens with a single spell. </p><p></p><p>Sure, the wizard isn't going to use dominate monster on a skeleton. That would be stupid. But if 8 skeletons are charging the party, they CAN cast shatter and destroy all of them with a single spell. Where it would take the fighter three rounds of combat to do so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh noes! A legendary resistance on my 2nd level spell! Whatever shall I do! I only have ELEVEN other spell slots stronger than that and two more of the same level. I really hope he doesn't keep using them on my 2nd and 3rd level spells while my 6th, 7th and 8th level spells are waiting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most of those take an action. Yes please on the enemy using an entire action to avoid my second level spell at level 15. I will take that trade.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Leave it which way? Also, why would I place them on the dragon. I place them IN FRONT of the dragon. Okay, maybe I place them on him if we are in a big arena. But, man 2 legendary actions, on an attack that hits none of my allies, to move 10 ft forward (because of difficult terrain) which... might not even get him fully out of the web, since it is 20 ft and I only need 5 ft of it in the dragon? But, maybe it is a completely flat arena and the dragon is dealing with flat webs and flew up into the air and over the webs. Again, how am I losing in this exchange? I just procced 2 legendary actions and limited the Dragon's ability to respond to the rest of our actions.</p><p></p><p>Oh, well maybe he makes a tail attack... against who? I mean, you literally just described a dragon getting attacked, getting hit by a spell, and then making the save which you claimed was a 50% chance. Again... how is that bad for me? Yeah, my spell doesn't take affect before my spell takes affect. That isn't a unique factor to high-level play</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh yes, the line of breath weapon, totally just as effective when he can't move and we can scatter, pelting him with ranged attacks with advantage. Also, a 1 in 3 chance? Meaning that if he gets it, chooses to fail the save, and blasts a party member or two... there is a 66% chance on his next turn, he is stuck in place and needs to waste his entire turn to get into range to hit anyone? </p><p></p><p>And again, all of this, from one of the WEAKEST spells the wizard could have cast. Not in terms of "well I could have done so much more" but in terms of... just HOW many resources I have left to spend on this fight.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>More limited than ALL OF MY SPELL SLOTS. Yeah, they get three 2nd level, ELEVEN other slots of higher level. That's 14 > 5</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>.... </p><p></p><p>Yeah, I'm sure between the fighter who either uses a 1-handed weapon AND A SHIELD or a TWO-HANDED weapon, the fact that one of their hands is full of dragon is just as impactful as the wizard who can use neither of those things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>....</p><p></p><p>Yes, please grapple and then have a shield in your other hand. I'd love you to be stuck making unarmed kicks against the dragon. You will be so effective dealing 6 damage at a time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if the fighter is stupid enough to stand in melee range.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wow. Yeah, lair actions are a thing. You should check those out. Also, it isn't a try with a 20 DC dex save, and if the Rune Knight stands up... so what? The entire point was to damage the knight, then attack without disadvantage. </p><p></p><p>For someone constantly going off about all his high-level play experience, you don't seem to have a terribly high grasp of tactics here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do not know how to explain this to you. </p><p></p><p>In social situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice.</p><p>In exploration situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice. DESPITE building my character to be quite good here.</p><p>In combat situations, I tend to not deal the most damage, nor have the debilitating effects of the others. My largest contribution to date has been taking enough attacks that I drop to zero instead of the more effective characters. </p><p></p><p>I'm not useless. But it is frustrating that the greatest contribution I make to the team, is being beaten into a bloody pulp. Because, yeah, it is a team game. And being the anchor dragging the team down, SUCKS.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9335896, member: 6801228"] So the words "bounded accuracy" have no meaning to you? Tell me, have you actually seen a fighter try to solo, say, 8 skeletons? More? I had a DM once who was very new and tried to make unique "nightmare" challenges for each player. For the Cleric he created a literal endless horde zombies. Cleric was stuck fighting them while the rest of the party did their own things. The cleric player was BORED. It was too easy. Sure, they were burning through spell slots in the nightmare, but they were untouchable for multiple minutes of continuous fighting, because they could slaughter zombies by the dozens with a single spell. Sure, the wizard isn't going to use dominate monster on a skeleton. That would be stupid. But if 8 skeletons are charging the party, they CAN cast shatter and destroy all of them with a single spell. Where it would take the fighter three rounds of combat to do so. Oh noes! A legendary resistance on my 2nd level spell! Whatever shall I do! I only have ELEVEN other spell slots stronger than that and two more of the same level. I really hope he doesn't keep using them on my 2nd and 3rd level spells while my 6th, 7th and 8th level spells are waiting. Most of those take an action. Yes please on the enemy using an entire action to avoid my second level spell at level 15. I will take that trade. Leave it which way? Also, why would I place them on the dragon. I place them IN FRONT of the dragon. Okay, maybe I place them on him if we are in a big arena. But, man 2 legendary actions, on an attack that hits none of my allies, to move 10 ft forward (because of difficult terrain) which... might not even get him fully out of the web, since it is 20 ft and I only need 5 ft of it in the dragon? But, maybe it is a completely flat arena and the dragon is dealing with flat webs and flew up into the air and over the webs. Again, how am I losing in this exchange? I just procced 2 legendary actions and limited the Dragon's ability to respond to the rest of our actions. Oh, well maybe he makes a tail attack... against who? I mean, you literally just described a dragon getting attacked, getting hit by a spell, and then making the save which you claimed was a 50% chance. Again... how is that bad for me? Yeah, my spell doesn't take affect before my spell takes affect. That isn't a unique factor to high-level play Oh yes, the line of breath weapon, totally just as effective when he can't move and we can scatter, pelting him with ranged attacks with advantage. Also, a 1 in 3 chance? Meaning that if he gets it, chooses to fail the save, and blasts a party member or two... there is a 66% chance on his next turn, he is stuck in place and needs to waste his entire turn to get into range to hit anyone? And again, all of this, from one of the WEAKEST spells the wizard could have cast. Not in terms of "well I could have done so much more" but in terms of... just HOW many resources I have left to spend on this fight. More limited than ALL OF MY SPELL SLOTS. Yeah, they get three 2nd level, ELEVEN other slots of higher level. That's 14 > 5 .... Yeah, I'm sure between the fighter who either uses a 1-handed weapon AND A SHIELD or a TWO-HANDED weapon, the fact that one of their hands is full of dragon is just as impactful as the wizard who can use neither of those things. .... Yes, please grapple and then have a shield in your other hand. I'd love you to be stuck making unarmed kicks against the dragon. You will be so effective dealing 6 damage at a time. Only if the fighter is stupid enough to stand in melee range. Wow. Yeah, lair actions are a thing. You should check those out. Also, it isn't a try with a 20 DC dex save, and if the Rune Knight stands up... so what? The entire point was to damage the knight, then attack without disadvantage. For someone constantly going off about all his high-level play experience, you don't seem to have a terribly high grasp of tactics here. I do not know how to explain this to you. In social situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice. In exploration situations, my character is not the most effective. Someone else is, so in major social situations, that character is the default choice. DESPITE building my character to be quite good here. In combat situations, I tend to not deal the most damage, nor have the debilitating effects of the others. My largest contribution to date has been taking enough attacks that I drop to zero instead of the more effective characters. I'm not useless. But it is frustrating that the greatest contribution I make to the team, is being beaten into a bloody pulp. Because, yeah, it is a team game. And being the anchor dragging the team down, SUCKS. [/QUOTE]
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