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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9336064" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Yes, I think at 17th level a fighter will generally take down more Skeletons than a Wizard will.</p><p></p><p>It is going to be very rare that a Wizard will be able to get 8 skeletons in a single AOE, let alone an AOE that will eliminate more than 3 or 4 (the number a fighter can reliably destroy at this level in a single turn).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure but only 2 more rounds to use them before the Dragon is killed by your allies.</p><p></p><p>Like I said at high level damage is often the best course of action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He will probably die before he runs out and at that point you will have contributed nothing to the encounter. Really the most likely outcome is you lose some hit points (to drain your allies healing resources) and you lose some spell slots.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No most of them take a legendary action or a bonus action. Some take an action but not most at this level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don;t play ggames with Dragons much do you.</p><p></p><p>It is 40 feet flying and he can fly right off the ground, but that is not what he is going to do most likely, he also has a burrowing speed of 30 feet (15 using a Legendary) ..... burrowing which gives him full cover against your allies unless they go in your web to get him.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Legendary actions recharge every round. It is not like he runs out of them. If there was no one in range to hit, then there was no one to use them on anyway.</p><p></p><p>Using a Legendary action does not take a reacion, so it does not take away his ability to respond to anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If he doesn't have 2 Legendary actions to use to leave the Web before it takes effect, then by definition he had someone within 15 feet this round. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you knew the Dragon simply couldn't leave.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>His beath weapon (and Dragonfear) are his most effective abilities even if he is only targeting one person. And you can't scatter because he has not made his save until his turn and you don't know if he will be able to move (unless he has already taken his legendary action and left, in which case you do know.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>to be clear - here is the scenario you are talking about:</p><p></p><p>IF he has already used 2 legendary actions this turn when you cast</p><p>AND</p><p>IF he fails his save</p><p>AND</p><p>IF he does not use Legendary Resistance</p><p>AND</p><p>IF he gets back his Lightning Breath</p><p>AND</p><p>IF an average of 65 points of Lightning damage does not break your concentration (because he is going to target the guy who has him webbed)</p><p>AND</p><p>IF you hang on to concentration until the end of the next turn through the Lair action which will also target you</p><p>AND</p><p>IF he does not get back his Lightning breath on the next turn</p><p></p><p>Yes if all those things happen he will be restrained at the start of his next turn and would need to use an action to try and break free to get into range to damage anyone. That is a corner case indeed!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is never going to happen in play. It is never going to land and restrain him. It is a wasted spell slot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I already pointed out How Giants Might and grapple is way more effective than your 2nd level spell, just on the mechanics you are trying to achieve and it lasts an entire fight. Now consider it also adds about 20 points of damage in a fight every time it is used (about equal to fireball) .... so his 5 giants mights are more powerful in play than all your 2nd and 3rd level slots combined.</p><p></p><p>Then he runes:</p><p></p><p>Fire Rune can Restrain an enemy</p><p>Stone Rune can incapacitate him</p><p>Storm Run can give the Dragon disadvantage once a turn for the entire fight.</p><p></p><p>He gets each of these twice and that is in addition to multiple defensive abilities and 3 attacks a round every single round (and 8 using action surge)</p><p>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Look you said something that was not true.</p><p></p><p>If he is grappling with a shield he will not be using a one-handed or two-handed weapon. If he is grappling with a 2 handed weapon he will not be using a two handed weapon. That is obvious, but in both of those cases he will still be attacking every round and will usually be effective at it.</p><p></p><p>You claimed he could not attack, that is just factually false.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you don't have a natural weapon, but to be clear that is 6 damage at a time, three times per turn plus giant's might damage, plus any damage you get from your runes, plus any damage you get from any other modifiers and that is the LOW BAR.</p><p></p><p>The guy with the Maul or Pole Arm simply pulls out a backup weapon like a longsword.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You mean where he is best positioned to actually kill the thing you cast web on?</p><p></p><p>As you mentioned this is not a particularly difficult encounter, but it is a crapload harder of the Dragon can hang around and just keep breathing on you with lightning.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh it is in the Dragon's Lair? I will add that to the list of things the Wizard needs to overcome to maintain his web</p><p></p><p>It is a DC 15 Dex save or be knocked prone, and if he fails after using indomitable he is knocked prone and restrained. This does not break the grapple though and it is a DC 10 strength check as an action to try to stand up .... which he makes with advantage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>IF he goes before the Rune Knight can stand up and if the Rune Knight is not grappling from 10 foot away with reach (which all of them get in Giants might at 18th level).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh I have a good grasp of tactics and Dragons. You are the one who pretty much wasted an entire spell slot throwing out web.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Look it is a team game, just because someone else is the "Default Choice" doesn;t mean you aren['t playing.</p><p></p><p>Going back to basketball (which does have defined roles by the way), just because someone is a better shooter and is the default choice to pass the ball to for a jumper it does not mean another player doesn't get to take a jumper or two when the best player is unguarded.</p><p></p><p>Try to be successful with the opportunities you get instead of complaining about the opportunities someone else gets. If this doesn't work try to find a smaller gaming group or play a 1-on-1 where you are doing everything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So do I especially when I am playing full caster, but also when I am playing a Ranger or Paladin. At high level though, damage (and defense) is often the most effective approach for a lot of enemies.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9336064, member: 7030563"] Yes, I think at 17th level a fighter will generally take down more Skeletons than a Wizard will. It is going to be very rare that a Wizard will be able to get 8 skeletons in a single AOE, let alone an AOE that will eliminate more than 3 or 4 (the number a fighter can reliably destroy at this level in a single turn). Sure but only 2 more rounds to use them before the Dragon is killed by your allies. Like I said at high level damage is often the best course of action. He will probably die before he runs out and at that point you will have contributed nothing to the encounter. Really the most likely outcome is you lose some hit points (to drain your allies healing resources) and you lose some spell slots. No most of them take a legendary action or a bonus action. Some take an action but not most at this level. You don;t play ggames with Dragons much do you. It is 40 feet flying and he can fly right off the ground, but that is not what he is going to do most likely, he also has a burrowing speed of 30 feet (15 using a Legendary) ..... burrowing which gives him full cover against your allies unless they go in your web to get him. Legendary actions recharge every round. It is not like he runs out of them. If there was no one in range to hit, then there was no one to use them on anyway. Using a Legendary action does not take a reacion, so it does not take away his ability to respond to anything. If he doesn't have 2 Legendary actions to use to leave the Web before it takes effect, then by definition he had someone within 15 feet this round. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you knew the Dragon simply couldn't leave. His beath weapon (and Dragonfear) are his most effective abilities even if he is only targeting one person. And you can't scatter because he has not made his save until his turn and you don't know if he will be able to move (unless he has already taken his legendary action and left, in which case you do know. to be clear - here is the scenario you are talking about: IF he has already used 2 legendary actions this turn when you cast AND IF he fails his save AND IF he does not use Legendary Resistance AND IF he gets back his Lightning Breath AND IF an average of 65 points of Lightning damage does not break your concentration (because he is going to target the guy who has him webbed) AND IF you hang on to concentration until the end of the next turn through the Lair action which will also target you AND IF he does not get back his Lightning breath on the next turn Yes if all those things happen he will be restrained at the start of his next turn and would need to use an action to try and break free to get into range to damage anyone. That is a corner case indeed! It is never going to happen in play. It is never going to land and restrain him. It is a wasted spell slot. I already pointed out How Giants Might and grapple is way more effective than your 2nd level spell, just on the mechanics you are trying to achieve and it lasts an entire fight. Now consider it also adds about 20 points of damage in a fight every time it is used (about equal to fireball) .... so his 5 giants mights are more powerful in play than all your 2nd and 3rd level slots combined. Then he runes: Fire Rune can Restrain an enemy Stone Rune can incapacitate him Storm Run can give the Dragon disadvantage once a turn for the entire fight. He gets each of these twice and that is in addition to multiple defensive abilities and 3 attacks a round every single round (and 8 using action surge) . Look you said something that was not true. If he is grappling with a shield he will not be using a one-handed or two-handed weapon. If he is grappling with a 2 handed weapon he will not be using a two handed weapon. That is obvious, but in both of those cases he will still be attacking every round and will usually be effective at it. You claimed he could not attack, that is just factually false. If you don't have a natural weapon, but to be clear that is 6 damage at a time, three times per turn plus giant's might damage, plus any damage you get from your runes, plus any damage you get from any other modifiers and that is the LOW BAR. The guy with the Maul or Pole Arm simply pulls out a backup weapon like a longsword. You mean where he is best positioned to actually kill the thing you cast web on? As you mentioned this is not a particularly difficult encounter, but it is a crapload harder of the Dragon can hang around and just keep breathing on you with lightning. Oh it is in the Dragon's Lair? I will add that to the list of things the Wizard needs to overcome to maintain his web It is a DC 15 Dex save or be knocked prone, and if he fails after using indomitable he is knocked prone and restrained. This does not break the grapple though and it is a DC 10 strength check as an action to try to stand up .... which he makes with advantage. IF he goes before the Rune Knight can stand up and if the Rune Knight is not grappling from 10 foot away with reach (which all of them get in Giants might at 18th level). Oh I have a good grasp of tactics and Dragons. You are the one who pretty much wasted an entire spell slot throwing out web. Look it is a team game, just because someone else is the "Default Choice" doesn;t mean you aren['t playing. Going back to basketball (which does have defined roles by the way), just because someone is a better shooter and is the default choice to pass the ball to for a jumper it does not mean another player doesn't get to take a jumper or two when the best player is unguarded. Try to be successful with the opportunities you get instead of complaining about the opportunities someone else gets. If this doesn't work try to find a smaller gaming group or play a 1-on-1 where you are doing everything. So do I especially when I am playing full caster, but also when I am playing a Ranger or Paladin. At high level though, damage (and defense) is often the most effective approach for a lot of enemies. [/QUOTE]
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