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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9342438" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Ah, trading breadth for depth. Hmm. I'd have to consider that really hard. Most characters get only 4 skills, and it would make something like expertise in Perception common for elves. I'm not sure I would want to have people getting only two skills, but each was expertise. </p><p></p><p>Partially because, as much as I love the idea of making "concepts" the truth of the matter is many players are motivated by success. A lot of people will feel a pressure to forgo getting expertise in a "concept skill" like medicine or history, or even getting the skill at all, and instead get a "better" skill.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree with it being a design flaw from WoTC. In a game that features combat, Stealth and counter-stealth are just immediately, obviously useful. No one needs to make any special effort to make it useful. But something like "History" or "Animal Handling" requires either a dedicated effort from the player or a dedicated effort from the DM to make it even come up once. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying it is impossible to make these skills useful, but it requires much more thought and effort. And even if WoTC tried to make it more clear what they could be used for, it just could not make it more useful than skills that are so easily and directly applicable to two pillars of play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I have a similar rule I call "pushing yourself" which is currently set to increasing speed by 5 to 10 ft. It hasn't seen much use yet though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Part of that I would chalk up to the cost. An action is expensive, and even if a character wants to make that distance, they may reason that only moving then dodging is better, to make them less vulnerable. Another part of it I would say is the static nature of DnD combat, which is a bear to try and change. But, once two melee characters are in range of each other, moving is not only not giving any value, but also is punished by Opportunity Attacks if you move too much. That starts getting into deep, structural changes of the combat system though. Which is a bit beyond the purview of this discussion I feel.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True enough. I'm not sure if I'd want the help action in terms of lifting, as much as I would want to combine lift numbers, because I'm not sure how you could help someone else exert more strength. The goal is to increase your limit after all. Sort of like how I sometimes struggle to let people use Help when someone is trying to see if they know something. It always feels a little odd.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Well, I really do like the sherlock holmes style "read a scene" ability I've mentioned before.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mundane healing from the medicine skill seems obvious, especially a way to combat diseases and poisons without that being solely the realm of spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For Sleight of Hand, I'm always a fan of stealing something off an enemy who missed you with an attack. I actually gave Thieves a high-level ability that let them steal a weapon from an enemy that misses them with an attack, which lets you play that excellent gag of being threatened by an enemy who realizes they are holding a harmless item.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Extended reach might be a little gonzo, but I've often allowed people to thrown any type of weapon. I could see a check to increase the range of a thrown weapon.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Insight is tricky, but I could see an ability where a character could roll to get a single true fact about an NPC or a faction. I usually use insight for telling if people are lying, or sometimes to see if you can figure out where someone might have [X] if you know them. Expanding that into a more holmsian "from her [blank] you realize the Countess has touched the demonic arts at least once before."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Could be neat to have a performance ability where you can essentially pause the combat. You roll, and any enemy you succeed against is locked in place, watching you, while your allies are free to move. However, your allies cannot attack or cause an enemy to make a saving throw, or it breaks the performance and the battle resumes with whoever's turn was after yours (skipping everyone else)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I did like the idea that if a character was taking damage over time (like from alchemist fire) they could forgo rolling to get rid of the effect, and instead roll a constitution save to instead guarantee minimum damage. So, if you are on fire, and with a low dex you don't think you could put out the flames, instead you can roll con and instead of taking 3d6 damage, you take 3 damage.</li> </ul><p></p><p>I'm sure I could think of more, but this is a fine list to start with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9342438, member: 6801228"] Ah, trading breadth for depth. Hmm. I'd have to consider that really hard. Most characters get only 4 skills, and it would make something like expertise in Perception common for elves. I'm not sure I would want to have people getting only two skills, but each was expertise. Partially because, as much as I love the idea of making "concepts" the truth of the matter is many players are motivated by success. A lot of people will feel a pressure to forgo getting expertise in a "concept skill" like medicine or history, or even getting the skill at all, and instead get a "better" skill. I disagree with it being a design flaw from WoTC. In a game that features combat, Stealth and counter-stealth are just immediately, obviously useful. No one needs to make any special effort to make it useful. But something like "History" or "Animal Handling" requires either a dedicated effort from the player or a dedicated effort from the DM to make it even come up once. I'm not saying it is impossible to make these skills useful, but it requires much more thought and effort. And even if WoTC tried to make it more clear what they could be used for, it just could not make it more useful than skills that are so easily and directly applicable to two pillars of play. Yeah, I have a similar rule I call "pushing yourself" which is currently set to increasing speed by 5 to 10 ft. It hasn't seen much use yet though. Part of that I would chalk up to the cost. An action is expensive, and even if a character wants to make that distance, they may reason that only moving then dodging is better, to make them less vulnerable. Another part of it I would say is the static nature of DnD combat, which is a bear to try and change. But, once two melee characters are in range of each other, moving is not only not giving any value, but also is punished by Opportunity Attacks if you move too much. That starts getting into deep, structural changes of the combat system though. Which is a bit beyond the purview of this discussion I feel. Fair. True enough. I'm not sure if I'd want the help action in terms of lifting, as much as I would want to combine lift numbers, because I'm not sure how you could help someone else exert more strength. The goal is to increase your limit after all. Sort of like how I sometimes struggle to let people use Help when someone is trying to see if they know something. It always feels a little odd. [LIST] [*]Well, I really do like the sherlock holmes style "read a scene" ability I've mentioned before. [*]Mundane healing from the medicine skill seems obvious, especially a way to combat diseases and poisons without that being solely the realm of spells. [*]For Sleight of Hand, I'm always a fan of stealing something off an enemy who missed you with an attack. I actually gave Thieves a high-level ability that let them steal a weapon from an enemy that misses them with an attack, which lets you play that excellent gag of being threatened by an enemy who realizes they are holding a harmless item. [*]Extended reach might be a little gonzo, but I've often allowed people to thrown any type of weapon. I could see a check to increase the range of a thrown weapon. [*]Insight is tricky, but I could see an ability where a character could roll to get a single true fact about an NPC or a faction. I usually use insight for telling if people are lying, or sometimes to see if you can figure out where someone might have [X] if you know them. Expanding that into a more holmsian "from her [blank] you realize the Countess has touched the demonic arts at least once before." [*]Could be neat to have a performance ability where you can essentially pause the combat. You roll, and any enemy you succeed against is locked in place, watching you, while your allies are free to move. However, your allies cannot attack or cause an enemy to make a saving throw, or it breaks the performance and the battle resumes with whoever's turn was after yours (skipping everyone else) [*]I did like the idea that if a character was taking damage over time (like from alchemist fire) they could forgo rolling to get rid of the effect, and instead roll a constitution save to instead guarantee minimum damage. So, if you are on fire, and with a low dex you don't think you could put out the flames, instead you can roll con and instead of taking 3d6 damage, you take 3 damage. [/LIST] I'm sure I could think of more, but this is a fine list to start with. [/QUOTE]
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