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The Making and Breaking of Deities & Demigods
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<blockquote data-quote="maceochaid" data-source="post: 7781588" data-attributes="member: 6789608"><p>So like <strong>Simek</strong> is a source you could quote, and you did. So thank you. </p><p></p><p>But your premise that some Norse entities in the myths were primarily animistic versus theistic is what I'm interested in. There are a couple reasons I'm not convinced of your thesis that Norse mythic entities were not viewed as deities. We have very few sources, mostly Post Christian Icelandic that are highly euhemerized. While I agree completely that we must be careful about over generalizing German, Saxon, Norse, and Icelandic sources, the paucity of sources means anything we can determine cannot be anything but generalizations from these few strands. There is a clear connection between German and Norse deities, so while nothing is for certain looking cross German and Norse mythology we do get some clues.</p><p></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Many Gods match Indo-European God name cognates. Thor and Tiw for instance. In each of the Indo-European cultures these names are connected to Gods, not animistic forces. Each culture seems to have stories, they are anthropomorphic, and have interactions with each other.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">In the writings of Tacitus the Germans seem to be worshipping divinities that are identifiable to the Romans as Gods like their own. Donar is Zeus, Woden is Mercury, the match seems odd to us, but there is no evidence they had a completely shocking encounter with people who worshipped something different than what the Romans worshipped.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">In the Eddas they also seem to follow the Ur-Indo European myth of a battle between the fertility gods and the mage/priest/chieftain gods. This myth suggests they have a society which seems uncharacteristic of an animistic system. Freyr seems very central to this myth.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Eddas have several cosmic forces that are not described as people, the sun and moon, Yggsdrasil, etc. Baldr does not seem to be of the same kind of thng as this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Eddas consistently portray the Aesir and Vanir as anthropomorphic, having both familial and social relationships, having dwellings, owning particular items, etc. Baldr has a mother and a father. Freyr has a sister and a wife. Freyr owns magic items that give him power.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">This depiction is supported by the few Icelandic Sagas that feature gods where there is the very standard God-Hero relationship where Gods appear to heroes, to give gifts, utter prophecy, and intercede on behalf of mortals. In all these cases they are represented normally indistinguishable from humans.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The second Mereseberg charms also show the Gods Odin and Baldr as very human, owning a horse, etc. They do not seem to be sunlight, but people who own horses and who have supernatural powers, again very theistic appearing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The categories of beings are fuzzy, but in the Eddas there are distinct groups of entities Jotuns are seen as different as Aesir, while nature spirits in the form of Trolls, Elves, and Dwarfs is somewhat malleable, but again separate from each other. All groups are presented as generally humanoid creatures, that dwell in or are associated with rocks, rivers, trees, etc. but are generally not described as being those things.</li> </ol><p></p><p>So far you have only provided etymologies of names as the only proof that Norse people thought of the characters Baldr and Freyr as animistic forces rather than Gods. The fact that the names Baldr and Freyr meant things like sunlight, does not mean they were seen as solely natural phenomena and not gods. My name has a greek root, meaning defender of men, that does not make me a policeman. In addition the Eddas, Sagas, and traces in other texts don't seem to in anyway resemble animistic forces, but a very standard Indo-European family of Anthrpromorphic deities.</p><p></p><p>We cannot say much of anything for sure about the German/Scandinavian/Saxon religion. However in the debate about whether the names in the mythological sources represent theistic or animistic beliefs, it seems like the more cautious scholar would err on the side of theist rather than animist belief. What sources do we have for this animistic Baldr? There is no source that I know of that gives a discussion of how pre-Christian Scandinavians thought about or understood the entities named in these mythologies. So that is why I'm wondering, where are you getting these ideas from?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="maceochaid, post: 7781588, member: 6789608"] So like [B]Simek[/B] is a source you could quote, and you did. So thank you. But your premise that some Norse entities in the myths were primarily animistic versus theistic is what I'm interested in. There are a couple reasons I'm not convinced of your thesis that Norse mythic entities were not viewed as deities. We have very few sources, mostly Post Christian Icelandic that are highly euhemerized. While I agree completely that we must be careful about over generalizing German, Saxon, Norse, and Icelandic sources, the paucity of sources means anything we can determine cannot be anything but generalizations from these few strands. There is a clear connection between German and Norse deities, so while nothing is for certain looking cross German and Norse mythology we do get some clues. [LIST=1] [*]Many Gods match Indo-European God name cognates. Thor and Tiw for instance. In each of the Indo-European cultures these names are connected to Gods, not animistic forces. Each culture seems to have stories, they are anthropomorphic, and have interactions with each other. [*]In the writings of Tacitus the Germans seem to be worshipping divinities that are identifiable to the Romans as Gods like their own. Donar is Zeus, Woden is Mercury, the match seems odd to us, but there is no evidence they had a completely shocking encounter with people who worshipped something different than what the Romans worshipped. [*]In the Eddas they also seem to follow the Ur-Indo European myth of a battle between the fertility gods and the mage/priest/chieftain gods. This myth suggests they have a society which seems uncharacteristic of an animistic system. Freyr seems very central to this myth. [*]The Eddas have several cosmic forces that are not described as people, the sun and moon, Yggsdrasil, etc. Baldr does not seem to be of the same kind of thng as this. [*]The Eddas consistently portray the Aesir and Vanir as anthropomorphic, having both familial and social relationships, having dwellings, owning particular items, etc. Baldr has a mother and a father. Freyr has a sister and a wife. Freyr owns magic items that give him power. [*]This depiction is supported by the few Icelandic Sagas that feature gods where there is the very standard God-Hero relationship where Gods appear to heroes, to give gifts, utter prophecy, and intercede on behalf of mortals. In all these cases they are represented normally indistinguishable from humans. [*]The second Mereseberg charms also show the Gods Odin and Baldr as very human, owning a horse, etc. They do not seem to be sunlight, but people who own horses and who have supernatural powers, again very theistic appearing. [*]The categories of beings are fuzzy, but in the Eddas there are distinct groups of entities Jotuns are seen as different as Aesir, while nature spirits in the form of Trolls, Elves, and Dwarfs is somewhat malleable, but again separate from each other. All groups are presented as generally humanoid creatures, that dwell in or are associated with rocks, rivers, trees, etc. but are generally not described as being those things. [/LIST] So far you have only provided etymologies of names as the only proof that Norse people thought of the characters Baldr and Freyr as animistic forces rather than Gods. The fact that the names Baldr and Freyr meant things like sunlight, does not mean they were seen as solely natural phenomena and not gods. My name has a greek root, meaning defender of men, that does not make me a policeman. In addition the Eddas, Sagas, and traces in other texts don't seem to in anyway resemble animistic forces, but a very standard Indo-European family of Anthrpromorphic deities. We cannot say much of anything for sure about the German/Scandinavian/Saxon religion. However in the debate about whether the names in the mythological sources represent theistic or animistic beliefs, it seems like the more cautious scholar would err on the side of theist rather than animist belief. What sources do we have for this animistic Baldr? There is no source that I know of that gives a discussion of how pre-Christian Scandinavians thought about or understood the entities named in these mythologies. So that is why I'm wondering, where are you getting these ideas from? [/QUOTE]
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