The Martialist - Looking for Feedback

The pdf (The Martialist (EnWorld)) is the write-up for a class (minus the exploits) who is an expert in unarmed combat. It has been play-tested by a small group of players, but I'm hoping to hear the thoughts of the community at large.

Any feedback is appreciated, including comments on the writing and editing of the pdf itself to opinions of the class features and their relative strength/weakness compared to other classes.

Thanks in advance.

_______________________________________________________________________________

I'm going to start posting revisions at the beginning of the thread with new material continuing in the thread body. This first (The Heroic Martialist (EnWorld)(12 Feb)) includes changes based upon all of the feedback that I have received up through the first 10 levels of exploits. I think that it has (almost) everything you need to do to play a Martialist throughout the Heroic tier. Things left to do: Update Redirect his Effort and Pluck from the Sky exploits. Complete the information for the builds.

Many thanks to Alex319 and Quickleaf for their comments.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Since you only have the first two pages and no powers, there might not be a lot we can comment on, but I see a few issues:

- Are Martialists going to be able to get magical weapon bonuses (or something equivalent) for their "body weapons"? They are going to need them in order to be remotely competitive at moderate to high levels.

- The AC bonuses and resistances seem overpowered. Consider the following comparison:

Level 30 full plate paladin with shield: 10 (base) + 15 (half level) + 20 (+6 godplate) + 2 (shield) = 47 AC

Level 30 Martialist: 10 (base) + 15 (half level) + 7 (24 dex*) + 10 (+6 starleather) + 6 (bonus) = 48 AC

*This assumes you start off with 16 and bump it up at each stat bump.

So already you're getting a better AC than the current highest AC in the game, you get to keep both hands free, plus you get very good resistances to go with it.

- It might be a better idea to simply reference the existing grab rules in the PHB, and provide bonuses to them, rather than essentially rewrite that section here, unless you want it to be different in someway. That might reduce confusion.

- How are you supposed to use the "Move Grappled Target" ability in its second use (to respond to forced movement), if it requires a standard action to use and you can only use standard actions on your own turn?

- Don't forget that grapple becomes harder to hit with at higher levels, because you don't get a magic item attack bonus to add to it to keep up with the monsters' increasing defenses. This could pose problems at higher levels if you need to grapple to use many of your powers. You may want to add a tier-scaled bonus (see, e.g. the Dragonborn's Dragon Breath power).
 

Alex319 - Thanks for the feedback. I don't have time to answer your points now, but I will in the coming day or so.

Attached is the first three levels of exploits. Perhaps this will be meatier material for people to comment on.

Comments, criticism, etc. always appreciated.

Thanks.
 

Attachments


Attached are level 5 & 6 exploits for the Martialist.

In answer to the issues that you raised, Alex319:

- Are Martialists going to be able to get magical weapon bonuses (or something equivalent) for their "body weapons"? Yes, there will be new magic items that they will take advantage of.

- The AC bonuses and resistances seem overpowered. Perhaps a bit, however, I don't think that most players will bump their Dex at every opportunity. I'll probably revise the AC bonus downward. Still thinking about the resistances.

- It might be a better idea to simply reference the existing grab rules in the PHB. Good point; I'll be making that change.

- Move grappled target. Good point, and thanks. I'll be looking at that.

- Grapple at higher levels. The Martialist powers actually work the other way around. In several cases, the grappled condition occurs as a result of a successful Martialist attack.
 

Attachments


Comments about powers:

Striker Bonus Damage (or lack thereof)

Unlike the strikers in the PHB, your class does not have any sort of striker bonus damage ability, like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, or Warlock's Curse. To fit with the concept of the class, I would suggest something like Sneak Attack-level bonus damage (2d6/3d6/5d6, with options to increase via feats and class options) to any target that you hit with an attack that you had grabbed before the attack. If you do this you could also include an at-will that grabs (say Strength vs. Reflex, 1[W] damage plus target is grabbed) so that players will have a chance to get the bonus damage without having to spend an entire standard action doing nothing but grabbing. An at-will grab woult also make Martialist a more unique class.

Implements of Doom (IoDs)

The Implements of Doom seem underpowered, especially for a striker, as they have lower proficiency and damage values than most melee weapons. There may be ways to increase them via feats and class selections, but there is too little information to tell. That might be what you're looking for - a striker focused less on damage and more on immobilization and pumping out conditions (i.e. sort of a controllery striker) but this is something to look at.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, this might not be bad. The fact that so many of your powers target NADs may provide compensation for the lower weapon damage and chance to hit.

Weapon Keyword

It's unclear what the point of the Weapon keyword is. You're not using weapons, you're using IoDs. And the definition of the Weapon keyword is just a copy of the definition for the Fist keyword. (Note that if this is going to be a GSL product, you're not allowed to redefine existing keywords. Even if it isn't, I don't see any reason to since it's just going to cause confusion.)

Reliable Powers (or lack thereof)

In general, daily powers that have only one target and no miss effect are given the Reliable keyword, so that they are not completely wasted because of one bad roll. It might be a good idea to consider goving the Reliable keyword to some of your dailies with that effect.

Specific Powers

Weaponless Does Not Equal Weak and Attack to Defend

WDNEW seems strictly less powerful than ATD. ATD is usually more likely to hit (most monster ACs are at least 1-2 points above their Fortitude defenses) plus ATD has an additional special effect (which happens even on a miss.) I don't see any reason to take WDNEW.

Forceful Shove

Do you need the restriction on size categories? Most forced movement powers don't have it.

Dance of Death

I think there's a misprint here. Why does the attribute used for damage bonuses change at 21st level?

Redirect his Effort

Could use more clarity w/r/t the phrase "just prior." If a Warlock moves into melee, then uses his minor action to curse the Martialist, then attacks, does that count as moving "just prior" because there was a minor action in between? (Okay, I know PCs aren't supposed to be fighting each other, but that was just an example.) What if a monster moves into melee range (non-charge), provoking an OA from the fighter (which misses), and then the monster attacks? What if the monster moves into range, then readies an action to attack on something that triggers almost immediately?

Suggestion:

(1) Make the ability only activate when the Martialist is charged.

(2) Reword it as something like "if the creature moved more than one space since the beginning of its current turn (or most recent turn, if not attacking on its own turn)" The "more than one space" is to avoid RHE triggering when all the creature is doing is making short moves to slide into position, which is probably not what was intended.

Vault

I don't believe that monsters generally have listed heights.

Quick Jab

This power needs a complete rewrite.

The "bonus to initiative roll for one action" is a mechanic unique in the game, and it's not totally clear what it means. My interpretation of it would mean that if the Martialist is at initiative 17, and a monster is at initiative 18, then at initiative count 19 (before the monster acts) the Martialist can preempt him with the Quick Jab, then the monster acts (at IC 18) and then the player does his move and minor actions (at IC 17). However this severely limits the ability, because it means it is only useful if you are within 2 initiative points of the monster you want to preempt.

Second, the attack is extremely weak (weaker even than at at-will!) and has no side effects, so even the pre-emption would only be useful if you happen to knock the target down to zero hit points with the attack.

Suggested Rewrite to make the power more useful and stick to the apparently intended use of pre-empting an opponent's action:

Quick Jab
Daily • Martial, Fist (Weak Hand)
Immediate Interrupt - Melee
Trigger: A creature adjacent to you makes an attack.
Target: The attacking creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] damage, and the target is stunned until the beginning of his next turn.
Miss: 1[W] damage, and the target is not stunned.

Crack my Knuckles and Stomp it Out

These abilities seem very weak. Only 1d4 extra damage? Maybe up it to 1d8 or even a bit more.

Bat from the Air

This could even be upped to a +4 (compare Shield (Wizard Utility 2))

Block the Attack

You might want to change "-2 penalty against melee attacks from all other creatures" to "grant combat advantage to all creatures making melee attacks against you" to make it more clear and take advantage of an existing mechanic.

Constraining Chop

3[W] seems like a lot for a 3rd level encounter power. Maybe reduce to 2[W]?

Leaping Blow

I assume you have to make a Jump check to get into the square. If you don't roll high enough to get in range what happens? Is the ability wasted? Also do you get a running start on your jump check?

Overpowering Rush

Suggested changes for clarity:

Replace "you bull rush the target" with "you push the target one square."

Move the indented "secondary attack" line and the "hit" line under it to between the main "hit" and "miss" lines, and add "and no secondary attack" to the miss line.

Quick Strike

See my comments under "Quick Jab."
 

Alex319 - Thank you, and thank you. Mostly for taking the time to type such a detailed review of what you've read. After two quick reads, I think that I agree with almost everything that you said. I'll have to spend more time in the coming days looking closer.

One comment that I did want to make regards the IoDs: I was frankly more concerned that they would prove to be too powerful. Although not yet shown here, there is a feat for each IoD at each tier that ups the damage dice by one. Looking at higher level play, I was thinking that having a melee weapon where the base damage could be 2d8, 2d10, or 2d12 might be a lot, especially if there is an exploit that does 6[W] + Strength modifier damage (or higher). [12d8 + Str, 12d10 + Str, or 12d12 + Str all seem awfully powerful, and that is not even as high as it could conceivably go.]

In any event, again thanks for the comments. More exploits to come in the following days...
 



Just looked over the 7th level exploits.

I *think* they're balanced.

Pluck from the sky: You might want to note that weapons with range 5/10 (daggers, throwing axes, etc) would suffer a -2 on the attack if used beyond range 5.

Study my enemy: To clarify does the +4 attack apply to the secondary attack? If so, you could just make the secondary attack Strength +4 vs. Reflex.
 

Disarm my Enemy:

The problem with PC power effects that disarm monsters is that monster stat blocks do not provide the information necessary to determine what happens if he is forced to make attacks without his weapon. Additionally, it is potentially extremely overpowered - if you hit with this power, then someone else pushes him one square, then someone else picks up the dropped weapon (which is not very hard to pull off at all - only one additional hit required, or automatic if you use Come and Get It, and the picking up the dropped weapon doesn't require a roll at all) you can basically cripple anyone in one shot - even a solo.

SUGGESTION: Replace "drops his weapon" with "is dazed until the end of his next turn," representing the fact that he has to scramble around to pick up his weapon (or regain his balance, in the case of monsters with natural weapons) and is thus vulnerable as well as not able to do as much.

Furious Flip: It seems strange that the target still grants you CA even after he's gotten up from prone. Also the power seems alittle bit weak, more on the order of a level 1 encounter power.

SUGGESTION: Change the power to "1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target to any square adjacent to you and knock him prone." This makes the power more unique, fits the flavor of the "flip" since you should be able to flip him over you, and makes it a little more powerful.

Pluck from the Sky:

This does not work as written, because it references the [W] value but it is not a weapon or IoD power. Presumably you are referring to the [W] value of the weapon that attacked you. However, monster stat blocks do not have [W] values for their weapons.

Also, one issue I noticed is that this effectively auto-blocks one ranged weapon hit per encounter. This kind of automatic blocking is probably too powerful. One suggestion,inspired by powers like Shield, might be to turn it into something like this:

Trigger: An enemy hits you with a ranged weapon attack
Effect: Gain a +4 power bonus on your defense against this attack. If this causes the attack to miss, then make an attack:
> Target: The creature that attacked you
> Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
> Hit: 1d10 + Dexterity modifier damage.

It might be a good idea to make this a utility power instead if you want to.

Study my Enemy:

See Quickleaf's comments.

All of the above:

Remember that any power that has a [W] in it must have either a weapon or IoD keyword so you know what to use for it.
 

Remove ads

Top