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<blockquote data-quote="Wulf Ratbane" data-source="post: 4198810" data-attributes="member: 94">Well the conversation was going like this:&quot;Prove the Pythagorean Theorem.&quot;Now you can either get out your compass and ruler, and set about proving the Pythagorean Theorem, or you can just say, &quot;Well, if I recall correctly, Pythagoras said the square of the hypoteneuse was equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides, so I guess that proves it.&quot;That is an accurate observation of the symptoms. CR starts to get less and less reliably predictive as CR increases. Partly this is because the number of asymmetric abilities increase as level increases, and partly it is because doubling the numbers to achieve EL+2 no longer holds true after about CR12 (though this is interrelated). So much of the CR value of high-CR creatures is tied up in their special abilities that HD end up meaning less and less. High CR creatures are bloated with abilities that they simply won't ever have enough actions to use. Not only do they have to survive more asymmetric attacks (save or die), they also lack the HD to survive conventional attacks.It's worth noting that 4e at least attempts to address this. By (a) removing a lot of those asymmetric abilities (even poison is a damage type, now!) and(b) increasing hit points, combat, especially high level combat, is a lot more ablative in 4e than it was in 3e.It is also true that high level 3e characters have far greater means at their disposal to choose the time and manner of each encounter. If they only want to face one encounter per day, it's much easier for them to nip off to a pocket dimension if they like. This further exacerbates the problem.I'd also like to point out that I am standing on the shoulders of giants here, and if you have a chance to read Upper_Krust's &quot;Challenging Challenge Ratings,&quot; I recommend it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wulf Ratbane, post: 4198810, member: 94"] Well the conversation was going like this: "Prove the Pythagorean Theorem." Now you can either get out your compass and ruler, and set about proving the Pythagorean Theorem, or you can just say, "Well, if I recall correctly, Pythagoras said the square of the hypoteneuse was equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides, so I guess that proves it." That is an accurate observation of the symptoms. CR starts to get less and less reliably predictive as CR increases. Partly this is because the number of asymmetric abilities increase as level increases, and partly it is because doubling the numbers to achieve EL+2 no longer holds true after about CR12 (though this is interrelated). So much of the CR value of high-CR creatures is tied up in their special abilities that HD end up meaning less and less. High CR creatures are bloated with abilities that they simply won't ever have enough actions to use. Not only do they have to survive more asymmetric attacks (save or die), they also lack the HD to survive conventional attacks. [b]It's worth noting that 4e at least attempts to address this. [/b] By (a) removing a lot of those asymmetric abilities (even poison is a damage type, now!) and (b) increasing hit points, combat, especially high level combat, is a lot more ablative in 4e than it was in 3e. It is also true that high level 3e characters have far greater means at their disposal to choose the time and manner of each encounter. If they only want to face one encounter per day, it's much easier for them to nip off to a pocket dimension if they like. This further exacerbates the problem. I'd also like to point out that I am standing on the shoulders of giants here, and if you have a chance to read Upper_Krust's "Challenging Challenge Ratings," I recommend it. [/QUOTE]

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