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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7476845" data-attributes="member: 4937">Everyone plays games in some sense, at least in part, for the illusion of 'success'. Some players only play games for the illusion of success and that is 100% of their enjoyment of the game.&nbsp; They are addicted to the self-validation that in game success gives them.&nbsp;&nbsp; And frankly, if you play games you ought to be at least some what sympathetic to that, since we've all felt the rush.The problem is that there is absolutely no way to solve that problem, if it is in fact a problem.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even systems which do things like 'fail forward' and 'partial success on failure' only move the problem around.&nbsp; They don't actually get rid of players that only play with the desire to win big and win all the time.&nbsp; In fact, for a subset of these players, those games are even more attractive and more open to min/maxing than more traditional games, and you still see power gaming dynamics in those games where one person wants to not only win all the time, and not only receive validation from the GM that they are a winner, but win bigger and better than anyone else at the table.&nbsp; All you might do by playing with the mechanics like that is ruin the illusion for a few of those players, because since its obvious to them that they can't lose, they can no longer sustain the illusion that this is real success and they'll move to systems where they feel that the winning is more 'real' (even though its never real in any RPG).&nbsp; But by and large, you'll still have min/maxing regardless of the system you are playing.Thus, your suggested 'fix' or 'solution' doesn't even really address the problem, because min/maxing is never driven by what you think it is.&nbsp; At some level, you even recognize that when you say things like, &quot;Do you dread doing nothing at the table while watching the other players have fun?&quot;&nbsp; How are you defining &quot;fun&quot; in that statement?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7476845, member: 4937"] Everyone plays games in some sense, at least in part, for the illusion of 'success'. Some players only play games for the illusion of success and that is 100% of their enjoyment of the game. They are addicted to the self-validation that in game success gives them. And frankly, if you play games you ought to be at least some what sympathetic to that, since we've all felt the rush. The problem is that there is absolutely no way to solve that problem, if it is in fact a problem. Even systems which do things like 'fail forward' and 'partial success on failure' only move the problem around. They don't actually get rid of players that only play with the desire to win big and win all the time. In fact, for a subset of these players, those games are even more attractive and more open to min/maxing than more traditional games, and you still see power gaming dynamics in those games where one person wants to not only win all the time, and not only receive validation from the GM that they are a winner, but win bigger and better than anyone else at the table. All you might do by playing with the mechanics like that is ruin the illusion for a few of those players, because since its obvious to them that they can't lose, they can no longer sustain the illusion that this is real success and they'll move to systems where they feel that the winning is more 'real' (even though its never real in any RPG). But by and large, you'll still have min/maxing regardless of the system you are playing. Thus, your suggested 'fix' or 'solution' doesn't even really address the problem, because min/maxing is never driven by what you think it is. At some level, you even recognize that when you say things like, "Do you dread doing nothing at the table while watching the other players have fun?" How are you defining "fun" in that statement? [/QUOTE]

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