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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7483061" data-attributes="member: 4937">False definition.&nbsp; False dichotomy.I am just not going to go there.Isn't it?&nbsp; Some people think it is.&nbsp; Some people would suggest that making the focus of chargen being good at something, rather than being a character which is realistic to setting, or being a character that produces an interesting story, would be min/maxing.&nbsp; I don't think quibbling over that is important, but I do want to point out you are now seriously splitting hairs.Without justifying my opinion, I think the only thing that is really wrong with what you are calling Min/Maxing is that it is often indicative of some sort of socially dysfunctional gaming, either in that the player does not want to be challenged and becomes frustrated if they are, or that the player wants to be the center of attention all the time, and otherwise dominate both play and the direction of play.&nbsp;&nbsp; In essence, many min-maxers want to play a game where the referee exists only to validate their awesomeness, and the other players exist only to witness it.&nbsp; I think there is an interesting intersection between the goals of 'story based referees' where success is assured and the goals of 'min/maxers', and I further notice that many of those games presume a small party of just 1-3 players.&nbsp; Anyway, that's a tangent and a don't want to get too much into badwrongfun territory criticizing Forge and Indy gamers for some of the very things that annoy me about them.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's enough to say that I don't always think that the aesthetics of play of those games are what the players or designers of the games believe that they are.What are you trying to cure?&nbsp; Because there is only one thing that you really need to cure, and that's whether everyone in the group is having fun.&nbsp; So the question becomes, why is the behavior of the Min/Maxer causing people at the table to not have fun?&nbsp;&nbsp; The cure then suggests itself.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will however suggest that one very important cure to the problem is when designing a system of play, more sure it rigorously enforces Celebrim's First Law of RPGs: &quot;Thou shalt not be good at everything.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; If it doesn't, then you'll have to come up with some sort of social contract that implements the First Law.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7483061, member: 4937"] False definition. False dichotomy. I am just not going to go there. Isn't it? Some people think it is. Some people would suggest that making the focus of chargen being good at something, rather than being a character which is realistic to setting, or being a character that produces an interesting story, would be min/maxing. I don't think quibbling over that is important, but I do want to point out you are now seriously splitting hairs. Without justifying my opinion, I think the only thing that is really wrong with what you are calling Min/Maxing is that it is often indicative of some sort of socially dysfunctional gaming, either in that the player does not want to be challenged and becomes frustrated if they are, or that the player wants to be the center of attention all the time, and otherwise dominate both play and the direction of play. In essence, many min-maxers want to play a game where the referee exists only to validate their awesomeness, and the other players exist only to witness it. I think there is an interesting intersection between the goals of 'story based referees' where success is assured and the goals of 'min/maxers', and I further notice that many of those games presume a small party of just 1-3 players. Anyway, that's a tangent and a don't want to get too much into badwrongfun territory criticizing Forge and Indy gamers for some of the very things that annoy me about them. It's enough to say that I don't always think that the aesthetics of play of those games are what the players or designers of the games believe that they are. What are you trying to cure? Because there is only one thing that you really need to cure, and that's whether everyone in the group is having fun. So the question becomes, why is the behavior of the Min/Maxer causing people at the table to not have fun? The cure then suggests itself. I will however suggest that one very important cure to the problem is when designing a system of play, more sure it rigorously enforces Celebrim's First Law of RPGs: "Thou shalt not be good at everything." If it doesn't, then you'll have to come up with some sort of social contract that implements the First Law. [/QUOTE]

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