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<blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 5780437" data-attributes="member: 54707">To me I was never really impressed with Clerical&nbsp; Magic, precisely because it was nothing more than clerical magic. It was not to&nbsp; me what Clerical powers should be about, which were, Miracles and Wonder&nbsp; Workings, or as the Greeks would say, not sorcery or magic, but&nbsp; Thaumaturgy.&nbsp; &nbsp;I thought that, interestingly (and kind of&nbsp; ironically) enough, the 4E Cleric came closer to being a real Cleric or Miracle&nbsp; Worker than most of the other editions.&nbsp; &nbsp;I'd personally like to see the Miraculous powers&nbsp; of the Cleric distinguished from the Magical powers of the&nbsp; Magic-User.&nbsp; &nbsp;I understand that some will say, &quot;Magic is simply&nbsp; Miracles in another verbiage.&quot; Or vice versa. I think that is true to some&nbsp; limited extent, but is very untrue in many other respects. &nbsp; &nbsp;You can define the issues as you like, I'm open to&nbsp; anyone's definitions.&nbsp; &nbsp;But assuming you agree with me, generally&nbsp; speaking, and feel Miracles are different from Magic, and that Miracles are the&nbsp; provenance of the Cleric, and the Cleric is the providence of the Miracle&nbsp; (whereas Magic is the art of the Magic user, and not of the Cleric), then how&nbsp; would you, in 5th Edition design a Cleric so that his Miraculous and Wonder&nbsp; Working Powers worked distinctly differently from that of the Magic user and did&nbsp; distinctly different things in distinctly different ways? (Although of course I&nbsp; understand there will be some overlap in some cases).&nbsp; &nbsp;How do you make the Cleric truly&nbsp; Miraculous?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jack7, post: 5780437, member: 54707"] [FONT=Verdana]To me I was never really impressed with Clerical Magic, precisely because it was nothing more than clerical magic. It was not to me what Clerical powers should be about, which were, Miracles and Wonder Workings, or as the Greeks would say, not sorcery or magic, but Thaumaturgy.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]I thought that, interestingly (and kind of ironically) enough, the 4E Cleric came closer to being a real Cleric or Miracle Worker than most of the other editions.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]I'd personally like to see the Miraculous powers of the Cleric distinguished from the Magical powers of the Magic-User.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]I understand that some will say, "Magic is simply Miracles in another verbiage." Or vice versa. I think that is true to some limited extent, but is very untrue in many other respects. [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]You can define the issues as you like, I'm open to anyone's definitions.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]But assuming you agree with me, generally speaking, and feel Miracles are different from Magic, and that Miracles are the provenance of the Cleric, and the Cleric is the providence of the Miracle (whereas Magic is the art of the Magic user, and not of the Cleric), then how would you, in 5th Edition design a Cleric so that his Miraculous and Wonder Working Powers worked distinctly differently from that of the Magic user and did distinctly different things in distinctly different ways? (Although of course I understand there will be some overlap in some cases).[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana] [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]How do you make the Cleric [I]truly Miraculous[/I]?[/FONT] [/QUOTE]

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