The Modifier Beast [culling the herd]

[Nyaricus]

I do think, however, that the abundance of modifiers has gotten out of hand. I've said before (and I'll repeat myself till someone acknowledges the brilliance of my observation ) that one of the best things they did design-wise in 3.x was the concept of named bonuses. Unfortunately, one of the dumbest things they've done is let the number of different named bonuses grow out of hand.

And with this statement over on a thread in General, some of us thought to ourselves "huh, this is worth a new thread."

Here it is.

Frankly, modifiers can get out of hand. Some stack, most don't. But the point is that there are a lot of redundant ones hiding in there which I am certain could be culled from the herd, per se, So, if someone knows where we could find a list of all the named mods, then I think we have a place to start with this.

 

[XCorvis]

This what you're talking about?

http://www.d20wiki.com/index.php/Bonus_Types_and_How_They_Stack

As far as I'm concerned, alchemical and insight can go. Alchemical can become competence or circumstance and insight can be untyped. The rest I can see a reasonable need for.

 

[Stalker0]

Resistance can be changed to enhancement, sacred/profane bonuses can become unnamed as there are very few of them out there, insight can become unnamed

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Cull the unnamed bonus, for starters.

 

[green slime]

But this thread should not only look at the types of boni, but also what at level a spell or effect should be to provide a certain bonus (type/amount) as well.

But then that would mean examining the magical system a lot closer.

SO perhaps we should just stick to what bonus types we want in the game in this thread.

 

[reanjr]

This what you're talking about?

http://www.d20wiki.com/index.php/Bonus_Types_and_How_They_Stack

As far as I'm concerned, alchemical and insight can go. Alchemical can become competence or circumstance and insight can be untyped. The rest I can see a reasonable need for.

I think I'd actually make alot of alchemical bonuses enhancement bonuses.

Many of the bonus types can pretty much only be applied once and should be untyped. The ones that DO stack with one another should just be untyped (no reason to name them if they stack).

Ability -> Untyped
Alchemical -> Untyped or Enhancement
Armor -> Untyped (reword spells like mage armor to get rid of stacking)
Circumstance -> Untyped
Competence
Deflection
Dodge
Enhancement (I think this should apply to the character, not the item)
Insight -> Competence (perhaps rennamed)
Luck -> Untyped (very few luck bonuses flying around)
Morale (I'm abivalent, kind of thinking untyped, kind of thinking leave it)
Natural Armor -> Untyped (reword spells to get rid of stacking)
Profane -> Divine (alignment based)
Resistance -> Enhancement
Sacred -> Divine (alignment based)
Shield -> Untyped (reword spells like shield to get rid of stacking)
Size -> Untyped
Untyped

Result:
Untyped
Enhancement
Competence
Deflection
Dodge
Morale
Divine

Untyped all stack. Divine bonuses can have one penalty and one bonus (or something)

 

[green slime]

Present modifiers:
Ability
Alchemical: Folded into circumstance
Armor
Circumstance: Now contains Alchemical
Competence: And why on earth, is there a competence bonus?!? To prove that you can have trained in the skill yet be completely incompetent nontheless?
Deflection
Dodge
Enhancement: Now contains Resistance
Insight
Luck
Morale
Natural Armor: Creatures with tough hide should just be given an Armour bonus instead, removing the wacky description
Profane: Shouldn't stack with Sacred
Resistance: Folded into Enhancement
Sacred: Shouldn't stack with Profane
Shield
Size
Untyped Boni should all be typed.


Also, it should become perfectly clear which type of bonus it is, according to the source which provided the bonus:

Divine spells should provide almost exclusively Sacred/Profane boni.
Arcane Divinition should exclusively provide Insight bonuses.
Armour & Shield's provide.... Yep.
Dodge & Deflection bonuses should be provided by skills & feats & class abilities.
Arcane Enchantment bonuses should be typed morale
Arcane Transmutation should provide Enhancement boni

circumstantial boni should be almost the exclusive perogative of the DM to deal out, beyond minor equipment for use with various skills (Healing kit, Climbers Kit, et.al).

Luck bonus shouldn't really exist, IMO. Either you succeed on your roll, and are lucky, or don't and weren't.

Result:
Ability: from Ability Scores
Armor: from Armour
Circumstance: Now contains Alchemical
Deflection: from abilities
Dodge: from abilities
Enhancement: Now contains Resistance; from Arcane Transmutation
Insight: from Arcane Divination
Morale: from Arcane Enchantment
Natural Armor: Creatures with tough hide should just be given an Armour bonus instead, removing the wacky description
Profane/Sacred: from Divine Spells
Shield : Guess
Size: Yes, that too.



Now, if it worked like this, it would be much simpler to remember, and deal with.

 

[CRGreathouse]

(Pedant alert)
Bonuses, not "boni"!

I like reanjr's breakdown, although I'd be careful with untyped bonuses.

 

[Nifft]

Since this is House Rules, I'll propose a bonus variant:

- Count up the effects that grant a bonus to a particular roll. If your opponent has fewer affecting his ability to resist your roll, you gain a +4. If he has more, he gains a +4.

- If you have at least one bonus to an unopposed roll, you gain a +4 on that roll.

Now you only need to figure out who has how many effects on them. Makes bless strong, but makes dispel magic a must-have.

-- N

 

[Notmousse]

An odd thought occured to me.

Are the bonus types tiered? Rather, what I mean is that most low level buffs are an enhancement bonus, and that it's often the higher level spells that allow for rarer bonus types (stacking with the much more common Enhancement and Morale bonuses) the seemingly most 'expensive' being Luck and Divine.

I haven't done any in depth research to see if this is the case, but if not so I've half a mind to implement such a system into my HB games.