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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Empirate" data-source="post: 5995635" data-attributes="member: 78958">Since the original discussion was Monk vs. Fighter, not Monk vs. Wizard, maybe we can find something to learn from this fruitless conversation.Can a 20th level Fighter do anything to a 20th level Wizard that a 20th level Monk cannot (with free choice of equipment)? I think not. Both classes' best bet is taking Leadership and hire an 18th level Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Artificer cohort. That cohort can then do the actual work (like getting access to extradimensional spaces, determining the kinds of defenses the Wizard has up and devising countermeasures). The killing is left to the Fighter or Monk "master", of course, but I'd assume they're both sufficiently adept at that. So what's the actual difference between Fighter and Monk in this scenario? Not a whole lot. They're similarly useless vs. a 20th level Wizard.BTW, to adress the earlier debate: sneaking up a rope isn't really the issue if you're dealing with any given 20th level Wizard. Finding a situation in which he's not aware that you might be coming IS. Depending on the level of the Wizard's paranoia, there's really nothing preventing him from having planar bound allies guarding him while sleeping, or spending sleepy-time on a different plane with altered time traits so his nap only takes a millisecond on the prime material, or regularly casting divinations to make sure he knows who his enemies are and what their plans might entail, etc.Sure, this comes close to the point Empath Negative made earlier, that any given Wizard cannot possibly do all of these. But 1) any given Wizard only needs to do one of these, and it's not all that resource-intensive, especially when compared to the immense utility of not being murdered in your sleep, and 2) not any given Monk will come up with a plan as brilliant as stealth-climbing a rope at the same time the Wizard is climbing it, then hiding in his featureless cell of an extradimensional room until he's finished his ablutions, said his prayers and gone to sleep, then CdG'ing him in same.BTW, how did the Monk ever get this close to the Wizard while he was going about his sleepy-time preparations? I wonder...</blockquote>

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