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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6195565" data-attributes="member: 95493">The first half at least is right I think. <s>You</s>One doesn't play a monk, I don't at least, for the "fights like a fighter" aspect. They might, but one plays them because they have combat ability (warrior) mixed with mystic (aka grab bag of) abilities (priest). So, a monk should be able to fight (people are going to use them that way anyway) in melee front lines, but they shouldn't be expected to be as good as fighter in combat. A fighter maxes out on his combat ability, and monks do less (but in the same vein) while also getting that grab bag of things that .. allow them to run up walls, or ki strike, or slow fall, or whatever. They are fighter+ but they should never be better than or equal to a fighter in pure combat.My objection Salamandyr is still how you go from the perfectly reasonable first half to the second half without the steps in between - something I said last time. Let's substitute some other variables in and see if you think it still holds water.You (direct quote):"And as I keep saying, if you're trying to created a coherent world, and  included in that fiction is the idea that if you train hard enough, you  are as hard to damage as someone in plate armor and as deadly with your  hands as a sword, spear, or mace, then inherent in that fiction is the  idea that the guy who uses plate armor and swords is not that highly  trained."Obviously not you:And as I keep saying, if you're trying to created a coherent world, and  included in that fiction is the idea that if you [are blessed by a deity], you  are as hard to damage as someone in plate armor and as deadly with your [sword] as a sword, spear, or mace, then inherent in that fiction is the  idea that the guy who uses plate armor and swords is not that highly  trained.Again, I don't see how that follows. The problem you seem to have is hands = sword. That is it. That is all. But a paladin who is blessed by his god, I'm assuming, you would have no problem with when he has sword + smite (extra damage or effect). Or a rogue who has sword + sneak attack (whatever extra form it ends up being). But the second fists = sword (and usually a fair bit less damage overall) then it becomes crazy and breaks your fiction?Also, your assumption is "not that highly trained," which he IS. In a different field. A wizard (at level 1) can cast spells. A fighter (IMHO) never should have that ability. Therefore (by your logic) is the inherent assumption that a guy who uses plate armor and swords is not that highly trained. Except by my assumptions he IS... in a different field.I don't get it but if that is your breaking point I guess I have two solutions. First make the monk require a weapon, problem solved. Second, don't play a monk, ever. No one is forcing you to. And when I don't have a problem with the guy with fists as swords (which I already disproved last post too) then I can still play the guy with fists as swords.Millions of kids even <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" /> I played baseball for years and was terrible at it, it is just the thing kids do.. isn't it? I guess the example today would be soccer. What were we talking about? Oh yeah,..Overall, agreed TwoSix, just can't XP you.If gold was widely available, in order to make a gold standard, how did silver coins become popular? With elves(or dwarves) who are such master craftsmen, why did human crafting become so popular? If alchemy existed (to create everburning torches) why did lanterns become to popular?Those kinds of questions ultimately fail. You start analyzing the specifics and motives of the world of DnD? Monks have different training. Why do clerics exist if druids can already cast divine spells, why do fighters exist when barbarians exist, why does 4th edition exist since 3e worked? The answer isn't limited to monks, fighters and baseball.It's true. It is more like fighters are major-leaguers in baseball, and monks are master painters. Silly TwoSix. Jugglers and Olympic level swimmers. Arcane Archmagi and Divine Heirophants. Should there only be one?*Reads "implied setting"**Groans**Thinks up a half dozen different objections to comment**Groans again**Decides it isn't worth it, deletes those half dozen objections**Sighs in relief*Agreed, I think.</blockquote>

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