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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tarchon" data-source="post: 279185" data-attributes="member: 5990">In your campaign, they're forbidden from using ranged weapons or something?  They're no worse off than other non spellcasters there.  A monk is perfectly capable of shooting a crossbow or throwing a javelin as well.  Secondly - and I don't know why I have to point this out - not all opponents fly and have ranged attacks, even when the Fly spell is available in the campaign.  And just because something isn't useful in that one condition doesn't mean that it's useless in all conditions.  In the vast majority of combats where there are at least some non-flying opponents, mobility is extremely useful.  Monks also have godawful jumping ability so at high levels (and especially with magic aid) they can even intercept unwary flyers with a leap-n-stun or leap-n-grapple attack.  They can often outrun flying opponents too (2x90 move from Fly doesn't beat 4x50); they can hide; they can even go to Total Defense and use their good saves, Evasion, and such to allow them draw off spell attacks harmlessly.I usually play our party monk when the regular player is away, and it sounds to me like you've just never played one.  They are extremely effective in combat, melee especially, and the high saves (plus the healing, various immunities, and [Imp.] Evasion) really do make them much less vulnerable than most characters, not only to spells but to other odd things like slippery surfaces, poisons, and assorted special attacks.  When a monster lays out most of the party with some stench attack, it's going to be the monk who snorts with derision and whomps it silly.  Vampire dominated the fighter and the barbarian?  Not likely the monk.I saw some other guy deriding the stun attack too - I can't even count how many times that's saved our party's bacon.  Sure, it doesn't work every time, but it's not supposed to be a sure-fire monster killer.  Even if it works half the time, that's level/2 times per day that an opponent loses his action, and when, incidentally, a rogue fighting with the monk will get in a sneak attack.  It's very, very nice.I will say that the monk is not a class for people with little tactical imagination - if your idea of tactics is "run up and hit it," this is not the class for you (I recommend Barbarian for that), but if you can juggle the enormous list of special abilities and use them when it's appropriate, it can do a lot.To be sure the class has some weaknesses, but it wouldn't be balanced otherwise.  One thing that really frustrates monks is proximity special attacks (great heat, cold, or acid, for example), but again that's the way it's supposed to be.  There have to be some disadvantages for balance, but disadvantages in some situations don't negate advantages in other situations.  Missing this idea seems to be where people usually run aground with "class X is broken/useless/sucks/etc," and that's certainly the case here.  Monastic life is also not "secluded by definition.  "  It is non-secular by definition; it requires separateness from secular life, not necessarily from other people (otherwise they would live alone in caves, not monasteries - hermits live alone in caves).  Buddhist monastic orders don't necessarily require seclusion, and the itinerant Buddhist monk is a stock character in traditional Chinese folklore, one that strongly contributed to this character concept.</blockquote>

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