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<blockquote data-quote="Mouseferatu" data-source="post: 279507" data-attributes="member: 1288">You're assuming the fly spell is available.&nbsp; It isn't always.&nbsp; Some groups don't have arcane casters, or have arcane casters without the fly spell.&nbsp; And it's not necessarily &quot;cheap.&quot;&nbsp; I know a huge number of DMs, myself included, who don't allow PCs to buy just any magic they want.&nbsp; Furthermore, sometimes a single spell isn't enough, or the caster must focus on other spells during the fight, or the battle is taking place in a dungeon or other location where flying isn't an option, or the caster simply doesn't have tie to reach the monk before he has to move, or...And so forth.Rogues don't have the saves of monks, or (usually) the AC.&nbsp; Rogues don't have the capability to deal out the same amount of damage in all circumstances, and they don't always get to sneak attack.&nbsp; You don't always have the option of summoning monsters; again, not every arcane caster has those spells.&nbsp; We recently just finished up a campaign that got to 13th level, and at no point did the sorcerer ever pick up any summoning spells, or fly.&nbsp; None of them were ever appropriate to a) the character, or b) what she needed at the time.Plus, the whole point is that the monk can do all this without aid from spellcasters, leaving resources available for other stuff.&nbsp; Wizards have spells that can often do more damage in one round than a fighter, but you don't normally see people using that as an argument that fighters are unnecessary.You're trying to convince us that monks are useless by focusing on specific circumstances where they're useless.&nbsp; But you could do the same for any of the classes, even the basics light fighter and wizard, with the right examples.Heck, even the bard shines in the right situations (although I'll admit I've never myself encountered one of them). <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mouseferatu, post: 279507, member: 1288"] You're assuming the fly spell is available. It isn't always. Some groups don't have arcane casters, or have arcane casters without the fly spell. And it's not necessarily "cheap." I know a huge number of DMs, myself included, who don't allow PCs to buy just any magic they want. Furthermore, sometimes a single spell isn't enough, or the caster must focus on other spells during the fight, or the battle is taking place in a dungeon or other location where flying isn't an option, or the caster simply doesn't have tie to reach the monk before he has to move, or... And so forth. Rogues don't have the saves of monks, or (usually) the AC. Rogues don't have the capability to deal out the same amount of damage in all circumstances, and they don't always get to sneak attack. You don't always have the option of summoning monsters; again, not every arcane caster has those spells. We recently just finished up a campaign that got to 13th level, and at no point did the sorcerer ever pick up any summoning spells, or fly. None of them were ever appropriate to a) the character, or b) what she needed at the time. Plus, the whole point is that the monk can do all this [i]without[/i] aid from spellcasters, leaving resources available for other stuff. Wizards have spells that can often do more damage in one round than a fighter, but you don't normally see people using that as an argument that fighters are unnecessary. You're trying to convince us that monks are useless by focusing on [i]specific circumstances[/i] where they're useless. But you could do the same for any of the classes, even the basics light fighter and wizard, with the right examples. Heck, even the bard shines in the right situations (although I'll admit I've never myself encountered one of them). ;) [/QUOTE]

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