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The "more complex" fighter: What are you looking for?
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6806202" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>This makes the mistake of claiming there is some huge fundamental difference between a "power" and a "spell" and that just by labeling something a maneuver or exploit means it ceases to be a spell. 4e and the <em>Tomb of Battle: Book of Nine Swords</em> showed that the two are functionally interchangeable on a mechanical standpoint and it is really a difference in fluff. </p><p>Heck, the Bo9S even had maneuvers divided into 9 levels, and many did elemental damage. They were spells. </p><p></p><p>If a player wants a complex fighter with combat options but doesn't like the <em>flavour</em> of casting spells but is okay with the <em>mechanics</em> of picking from various at-will attacks and once/per day powers, then reflavouring the eldritch knight is probably the best tactic. There's nothing game breaking in changing the damage type of many spells to slashing to piercing to match a weapon. <em>Thunderwave</em> becomes a powerful sword swing and <em>fireball</em> and explosive arrow. </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I don't disagree. Option creep is very much power creep. </p><p>However, this is relative or situation imbalance. In the right situation when the right powers are being used the class <em>can</em> be more powerful. When played by a skilled optimizer the class <em>can</em> be more potent. But the former is not constant and the latter can be said about almost any class. </p><p></p><p>However, this section implies the Tier 5 class distinction is still in existence. 5e very much does not have the same range of power between classes. At most there's a Tier 1-3, and even then it varies between subclasses, and there is far less disparity between a Tier 1 and Tier 3 class. The presence or absence or spells or options was not what created Tier 5 classes, but the stacking of abilities and effects of those spells and options. </p><p>Having seen numerous charts ranking classes, there's often great disparity between what class is where. It's far more of a judgement call, often giving a better glimpse of what the player values than the class itself. </p><p></p><p>Talking about the balance and difference in power between 3e martials and spellcasters is as relevant as bringing in 1e fighters and Basic D&D magic users.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But, if you are right above, wouldn't this class also be outright better than the fighter? Or, conversely, underpowered as a baseline so that when optimized it's balanced?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 6806202, member: 37579"] This makes the mistake of claiming there is some huge fundamental difference between a "power" and a "spell" and that just by labeling something a maneuver or exploit means it ceases to be a spell. 4e and the [I]Tomb of Battle: Book of Nine Swords[/I] showed that the two are functionally interchangeable on a mechanical standpoint and it is really a difference in fluff. Heck, the Bo9S even had maneuvers divided into 9 levels, and many did elemental damage. They were spells. If a player wants a complex fighter with combat options but doesn't like the [I]flavour[/I] of casting spells but is okay with the [I]mechanics[/I] of picking from various at-will attacks and once/per day powers, then reflavouring the eldritch knight is probably the best tactic. There's nothing game breaking in changing the damage type of many spells to slashing to piercing to match a weapon. [I]Thunderwave[/I] becomes a powerful sword swing and [I]fireball[/I] and explosive arrow. I don't disagree. Option creep is very much power creep. However, this is relative or situation imbalance. In the right situation when the right powers are being used the class [I]can[/I] be more powerful. When played by a skilled optimizer the class [I]can[/I] be more potent. But the former is not constant and the latter can be said about almost any class. However, this section implies the Tier 5 class distinction is still in existence. 5e very much does not have the same range of power between classes. At most there's a Tier 1-3, and even then it varies between subclasses, and there is far less disparity between a Tier 1 and Tier 3 class. The presence or absence or spells or options was not what created Tier 5 classes, but the stacking of abilities and effects of those spells and options. Having seen numerous charts ranking classes, there's often great disparity between what class is where. It's far more of a judgement call, often giving a better glimpse of what the player values than the class itself. Talking about the balance and difference in power between 3e martials and spellcasters is as relevant as bringing in 1e fighters and Basic D&D magic users. But, if you are right above, wouldn't this class also be outright better than the fighter? Or, conversely, underpowered as a baseline so that when optimized it's balanced? [/QUOTE]
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The "more complex" fighter: What are you looking for?
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