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The "more complex" fighter: What are you looking for?
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6806205" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>I think the reason they added so much "magic" in the game is because the amount of stuff that a person can do "mundanely" is <em>by definition</em> less impressive or extravagant than what you can do with magic. So people who want fighters and other martial characters to have all of these special abilities that seem to be approaching (if not equaling) the power of magic... but don't WANT it to be "magic".</p><p></p><p>But what exactly is the point of having magic if the mundane abilities in the game can <em>do practically the exact same thing</em>?</p><p></p><p>One of the aspects of the Warlord that it seems some players want is to have them be able to heal just as well as clerics, druids, bards and the like so they can be a replacement for those classes... but don't want them using magic to do it. But if you did... what exactly would be the point of magic in the game?</p><p></p><p>The thing about 4E is that it did indeed make Martial and Spell-using classes equivalent... because they both could accomplish the same exact game mechanical results. They both could grant hit points. They both could grant Temp hit points. They both could increase their allies' attack bonus. They both could increase the party's damage bonus. They both could attack multiple creatures at once-- within 5' and at range. They both could increase saving throw bonuses. They both could knock enemies prone. They both could stun enemies. They both could Mark enemies. They both could pull enemies towards them or push them away.</p><p></p><p>When you took a look at the Character Builder... I don't think there was a single mechanical expression of the gridded combat system that ONLY weapon-using characters could do or ONLY spellcasters could do. Every single mechanic could be found on at least one weapon-using martial character *AND* at least one spellcasting character. And this was exactly why people said that 4E's combat was "lacking fluff". Because while each power had that little line in italics at the top which tried to describe what was happening "in-game"... when you actually played I think for a lot of people there was virtually no difference. Every martial power had an equal-resulting magical power. I know for me there didn't feel like there was any difference between the two.</p><p></p><p>A martial character would pull an enemy 2 squares towards him because he "taunted" the enemy. A magic-using character would pull an enemy 2 squares towards him because he "shot vines out of his hands and yanked" the enemy closer. But the effect on the gameboard (which is what everyone was focused on) was exactly the same. That mini is moved two squares over to this mini, and now this mini rolls to attack. Whether something was magical or mundane made absolutely no difference.</p><p></p><p>Which is exactly why I've never understood why the "mundane" crowd in 5E had such a problem with just using the 5E spell mechanic system and <em>wiping the magic off of it</em>. Use the same exact cantrip and slot mechanic system, select those "spells" which duplicated mechanically what you thought a mundane weapon-user could do, and just use THOSE as the "maneuver list" for your mundane non-spellcaster casters, ignoring any of the fluff that implies "Magic!". That "Bless" spell that magically grants three allies a +1d4 to attack? Now is a "Bolstering Shout" that mundanely grants three allies a +1d4 to attack. That "Healing Word" spell that grants 1d4+modifier hit points at range? Is now an "Inspiring Word" shout that grants 1d4+modfier in hit points at range.</p><p></p><p>After all, this is EXACTLY what the 4E system is. A singular set of game mechanics... sometimes narrated as "magic"... and sometimes narrated as "mundane". And thus the power-level of both sides are ALSO exactly the same as the characters level up, because they are using the same exact game mechanics and are just changing the fluff. You don't need two separate systems to accomplish it. You just need the one. As 4E PROVED to us in spades. So just use it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6806205, member: 7006"] I think the reason they added so much "magic" in the game is because the amount of stuff that a person can do "mundanely" is [i]by definition[/i] less impressive or extravagant than what you can do with magic. So people who want fighters and other martial characters to have all of these special abilities that seem to be approaching (if not equaling) the power of magic... but don't WANT it to be "magic". But what exactly is the point of having magic if the mundane abilities in the game can [i]do practically the exact same thing[/i]? One of the aspects of the Warlord that it seems some players want is to have them be able to heal just as well as clerics, druids, bards and the like so they can be a replacement for those classes... but don't want them using magic to do it. But if you did... what exactly would be the point of magic in the game? The thing about 4E is that it did indeed make Martial and Spell-using classes equivalent... because they both could accomplish the same exact game mechanical results. They both could grant hit points. They both could grant Temp hit points. They both could increase their allies' attack bonus. They both could increase the party's damage bonus. They both could attack multiple creatures at once-- within 5' and at range. They both could increase saving throw bonuses. They both could knock enemies prone. They both could stun enemies. They both could Mark enemies. They both could pull enemies towards them or push them away. When you took a look at the Character Builder... I don't think there was a single mechanical expression of the gridded combat system that ONLY weapon-using characters could do or ONLY spellcasters could do. Every single mechanic could be found on at least one weapon-using martial character *AND* at least one spellcasting character. And this was exactly why people said that 4E's combat was "lacking fluff". Because while each power had that little line in italics at the top which tried to describe what was happening "in-game"... when you actually played I think for a lot of people there was virtually no difference. Every martial power had an equal-resulting magical power. I know for me there didn't feel like there was any difference between the two. A martial character would pull an enemy 2 squares towards him because he "taunted" the enemy. A magic-using character would pull an enemy 2 squares towards him because he "shot vines out of his hands and yanked" the enemy closer. But the effect on the gameboard (which is what everyone was focused on) was exactly the same. That mini is moved two squares over to this mini, and now this mini rolls to attack. Whether something was magical or mundane made absolutely no difference. Which is exactly why I've never understood why the "mundane" crowd in 5E had such a problem with just using the 5E spell mechanic system and [i]wiping the magic off of it[/i]. Use the same exact cantrip and slot mechanic system, select those "spells" which duplicated mechanically what you thought a mundane weapon-user could do, and just use THOSE as the "maneuver list" for your mundane non-spellcaster casters, ignoring any of the fluff that implies "Magic!". That "Bless" spell that magically grants three allies a +1d4 to attack? Now is a "Bolstering Shout" that mundanely grants three allies a +1d4 to attack. That "Healing Word" spell that grants 1d4+modifier hit points at range? Is now an "Inspiring Word" shout that grants 1d4+modfier in hit points at range. After all, this is EXACTLY what the 4E system is. A singular set of game mechanics... sometimes narrated as "magic"... and sometimes narrated as "mundane". And thus the power-level of both sides are ALSO exactly the same as the characters level up, because they are using the same exact game mechanics and are just changing the fluff. You don't need two separate systems to accomplish it. You just need the one. As 4E PROVED to us in spades. So just use it. [/QUOTE]
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