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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6806426" data-attributes="member: 996">There is no mistake.  The idea that an 'exploit' was a spell because spells, prayers, exploits, and psioinics were all presented in the power format is about as reasonable as claiming that a computer is a scented candle because you can find both listed for sale on amazon.  It was just a lot of overblown edition war propaganda.  Don't bother repeating it again.That wouldn't be a terrible idea if 5e had separated fluff & crunch a deal more consistently, and if there were not rules that interacted with whether things were magical or not.  As it stands, it's no where near a viable option.  Even in 4e, when h4ters were pretending that class powers were essentially identical, what exploits did and what spells did were too different to re-skin the latter as the former (the reverse might have worked, since magic could be so wildly diverse in what it did), and keywords made the difference between a Martial exploit and Arcane spell mechanically significant.In a game like Hero, where 'powers' were genuinely fluff-free and generic, you could, indeed pull things like that.  In D&D, not so much, and most definitely not in 5e.It's really quite similar, though 5e's use of spells in every class skews things towards the upper tiers.  The Tier system is often taken as an index of 'power,' when it's really very much about versatiltiy.  5e neo-Vancian castes are /more/ versatile than the 3.5 prepped casters who ruled Tier 1.  Conversely, a sub-class like the Champion is as one-trick (DPR) as it gets.Inevitably 'better' (in, say, the Tier sense) than the non-casting fighter sub-classes, yes.  But, that's not really an issue in 5e.  Balance isn't that precise, and the DM is Empowered to impose balance (such as 'spotlight balance') where the system doesn't establish it well enough for his campaign.  'Weapon user' is actually pretty broad, since there were many non-martial weapon-keyword powers.  'Martial' though, was unable to do a number of things that other sources could.  Typed damage for one obvious instance.  Now, it's true that the 4e system was able to model a range of 'sources' using a (relatively) fixed set of keywords, jargon and abstract mechanics, rather the way the English language can be used to describe an even wider range of things in a more ambiguous.  Neither renders those things indistinguishable or equivalent. It's easier to go into what they /can/ do in 5e:  DPR.  Unless you have some sort of magical ability, your meaningful contribution to the party's success in 5e is grinding out damage each round.  Anything and everything else is unexplored design space that 5e could open up to new martial classes (the existing archetypes are too locked-in to DPR to expand them all that much).I know you want 'details,' but I don't much see the point, nor am I going to start designing examples.  I'm not a designer, that's why I play published games instead of creating my own.  We already have two past editions that did offer more customizeable or choice-rich or even balanced martial alternatives.  All the examples you might want are there, and 5e's design is more 'open' than either, so they'd just be a start.Agreed.Not so much.  Cantrips do establish "this character is magical" in a very consistent/pervasive way.  The guy who can make holy light or arcane fire burn his enemies every round never seems like a pretender.  At the same time, as at-will abilities they're not overwhelming the narrative or mucking with the foundations of the world.  Such magic is 'real,' but it doesn't exactly kill people a lot deader than weapons, for instance.Monks' 'Ki' is explicitly magical in 5e, so on, not even the 'Open Hand' monk is entirely 'martial.'  The Berserker's rage is arguably not magical, so he's the best candidate for the fifth 'martial' sub-class in the PH.In contrast, in the Basic pdf, half the options are 'martial.'</blockquote>

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