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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6331629" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, why can't that be moved into supplements?&nbsp; Saying that a Vrock is a soldier of destruction, an Abyssal foot soldier (albeit a fairly elite one) is generic enough that it wouldn't impinge on anyone's campaign world.&nbsp; I mean, it's not too much of a stress to think that the Abyss is a&nbsp; fairly violent place and if you have Marilith (abyssal generals), then you have Vrock, (abyssal soldiers).&nbsp; No problems.You don't need anything more than this.&nbsp; Not in the core products.&nbsp; It's got lots of hooks, it's flavourful and it hangs together.&nbsp; If you meet Vrock on the Prime, you'd expect them to be in groups with lots of other soldier type demons.&nbsp; Although, to be honest, I'm not sure what a Chaotic army structure would look like, but, the Vrocks would likely be pushing their troops ahead of them through sheer force.&nbsp; Not a whole lot of leadership skills being displayed.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />That's my point though.&nbsp; You don't need anything more than this to fire up people's imaginations.&nbsp; You don't need pages of back story plot to use a Vrock in a D&amp;D game.&nbsp; And, if you do go with the bare bones version, then you free up other sources as well.&nbsp; Now you can have a Dragon article that talks about different Vrocks, several of which may even contradict other presentations in the same article - it is an exemplar of Chaos after all.&nbsp; But, with a really strong tie to a particular canon, now Vrocks can only ever be one thing and that one thing can never change or be contradicted.&nbsp; Like you say, there's thirty years of canon sitting on top of this creature and no change can ever be good enough that traditionalists won't stand on tradition to block it.No argument can ever win because the standard answer in 100% true.&nbsp; &quot;This isn't how this creature was presented.&nbsp; It's different.&nbsp; Therefore you cannot make this change because it invalidates what came before&quot;.&nbsp; That's true, but, it gets to the point where any change is immediately shut down before it even has a chance.&nbsp; It's not that the change is judged on being good or bad.&nbsp; It's different (which is unarguable true) and therefore cannot be done.&nbsp; There's just so much canon that any change can be countered by the tradition argument.&nbsp; I mean, good grief, in one of the preview articles, they changed some minor planar creature, Shemeska brought up a single article from a Dragon magazine in the 90's as a reason why the change could not be made.&nbsp; Canon should never have that much inertia.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6331629, member: 22779"] But, why can't that be moved into supplements? Saying that a Vrock is a soldier of destruction, an Abyssal foot soldier (albeit a fairly elite one) is generic enough that it wouldn't impinge on anyone's campaign world. I mean, it's not too much of a stress to think that the Abyss is a fairly violent place and if you have Marilith (abyssal generals), then you have Vrock, (abyssal soldiers). No problems. You don't need anything more than this. Not in the core products. It's got lots of hooks, it's flavourful and it hangs together. If you meet Vrock on the Prime, you'd expect them to be in groups with lots of other soldier type demons. Although, to be honest, I'm not sure what a Chaotic army structure would look like, but, the Vrocks would likely be pushing their troops ahead of them through sheer force. Not a whole lot of leadership skills being displayed. :D That's my point though. You don't need anything more than this to fire up people's imaginations. You don't need pages of back story plot to use a Vrock in a D&D game. And, if you do go with the bare bones version, then you free up other sources as well. Now you can have a Dragon article that talks about different Vrocks, several of which may even contradict other presentations in the same article - it is an exemplar of Chaos after all. But, with a really strong tie to a particular canon, now Vrocks can only ever be one thing and that one thing can never change or be contradicted. Like you say, there's thirty years of canon sitting on top of this creature and no change can ever be good enough that traditionalists won't stand on tradition to block it. No argument can ever win because the standard answer in 100% true. "This isn't how this creature was presented. It's different. Therefore you cannot make this change because it invalidates what came before". That's true, but, it gets to the point where any change is immediately shut down before it even has a chance. It's not that the change is judged on being good or bad. It's different (which is unarguable true) and therefore cannot be done. There's just so much canon that any change can be countered by the tradition argument. I mean, good grief, in one of the preview articles, they changed some minor planar creature, Shemeska brought up a single article from a Dragon magazine in the 90's as a reason why the change could not be made. Canon should never have that much inertia. [/QUOTE]

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