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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6390883" data-attributes="member: 87792">Yes.  2e and 3.5 buried you under sourcebooks in a way no other edition  did.  To borrow from Wikipedia (blame them for the formatting):[h=3]Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition[/h] <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Forgotten Realms Campaign Set was written by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood" target="_blank">Ed Greenwood</a>, with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Grubb" target="_blank">Jeff Grubb</a> and Karen Martin, and published as a boxed set in 1987. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_System" target="_blank">City System</a> (1988) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Darkness" target="_blank">Lords of Darkness</a> (1988) </li> </ul>[h=3]Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd edition[/h] <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora%27s_Whole_Realms_Catalog" target="_blank">Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog</a> (1992) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Code_of_the_Harpers" target="_blank">The Code of the Harpers</a> (1993) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demihuman_Deities" target="_blank">Demihuman Deities</a> (1998) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draconomicon" target="_blank">Draconomicon</a> (1990) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drizzt_Do%27Urden%27s_Guide_to_the_Underdark" target="_blank">Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark</a> (1999) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Drow_of_the_Underdark" target="_blank">The Drow of the Underdark</a> (1991) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elminster%27s_Ecologies_Appendix_I:_The_Battle_of_Bones_/_Hill_of_Lost_Souls" target="_blank">Elminster's Ecologies Appendix I: The Battle of Bones / Hill of Lost Souls</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elminster%27s_Ecologies_Appendix_II:_The_High_Moor_/_The_Serpent_Hills" target="_blank">Elminster's Ecologies Appendix II: The High Moor / The Serpent Hills</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faiths_%26_Avatars" target="_blank">Faiths & Avatars</a> (1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Adventures" target="_blank">Forgotten Realms Adventures</a> (1990) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forgotten_Realms_Atlas" target="_blank">The Forgotten Realms Atlas</a> (1990) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Campaign_Setting" target="_blank">Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting</a> (1993, 1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes%27_Lorebook" target="_blank">Heroes' Lorebook</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horde_%28boxed_set%29" target="_blank">The Horde</a> (1990) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maztica_Campaign_Set" target="_blank">Maztica Campaign Set</a> (1991) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_North:_Guide_to_the_Savage_Frontier" target="_blank">The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier</a> (1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pages_from_the_Mages" target="_blank">Pages from the Mages</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_Fallen_Stars" target="_blank">Pirates of the Fallen Stars</a> (1992) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player%27s_Guide_to_the_Forgotten_Realms_Campaign" target="_blank">Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms Campaign</a> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruins_of_Myth_Drannor" target="_blank">The Ruins of Myth Drannor</a> (1993) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruins_of_Undermountain" target="_blank">The Ruins of Undermountain</a> (1991) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruins_of_Zhentil_Keep" target="_blank">Ruins of Zhentil Keep</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Sisters" target="_blank">The Seven Sisters</a> (1995) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vilhon_Reach" target="_blank">The Vilhon Reach</a> (1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains%27_Lorebook" target="_blank">Villains' Lorebook</a> (1998) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volo%27s_Guide_to_the_Dalelands" target="_blank">Volo's Guide to the Dalelands</a> (1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volo%27s_Guide_to_Waterdeep" target="_blank">Volo's Guide to Waterdeep</a> (1993) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warriors_and_Priests_of_the_Realms" target="_blank">Warriors and Priests of the Realms</a> (1996) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizards_and_Rogues_of_the_Realms" target="_blank">Wizards and Rogues of the Realms</a> (1995) </li> </ul>[h=3]Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition[/h]*More than a dozen entries (mostly 3.5) snipped because the boards broke on a Wikitable*[h=3]Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition[/h] Wizards of the Coast released the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in August 2008, and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide in September 2008.  (Neonchameleon note: Neverwinter as well)The two editions I called out bury you under sourcebooks.Eberron  and 4e work together IMO better than Eberron and 3.5 - as for 4e's  supposed One True Story, I don't remember Bael Turath or The Raven Queen  showing up in Eberron.  But there's a total of two source books for Eberron in 4e - the players' guide and the campaign guide (and one adventure).  3.5 gave me a dozen books (plus a screen, character sheets, and adventures) after the setting book.And the point I'm  making is that this simply isn't so.  2e's One True Cosmology (about  which I've ranted elsewhere) and the Weave are part of a parcel.  I'm  not aware that 1e's Druidic Circles applied to Dragonlance - and 4e's  dwarf narrative doesn't apply to Eberron or Athas.Further the 4e lore, like most of the 1e Lore, and the Basic Lore is  almost always phrased sketchily and as hooks rather than something that  is so.Which is why they were one of the most common PC races in Planescape.   "I'm an anomaly.  Just like all the rest of my race who are also  anomalies."I'm very glad you  scare-quoted "disrespect" again - as if even you don't believe it to be  such.  Because to me there are three fundamental weaknesses of 5e.  The  first is Mearls' Math Mangle (if he's going to call it the Math Wringer  I'll use the British term for the same device) and being the sort of  designer who thinks that you can add the math at the end.  The second is  how everything interesting or powerful is magic, and not just magic but  a spell.  The third and relevant one is how lukewarm the game is.  How  little of the author's voice I feel - and how little reason I see to  play it as opposed to a game that sets out to be something.If anything, had WotC followed through on not doing what you call "disrespecting" people I'd have found it patronising. And  when WotC breaks into my house and steals all my old books that will be  relevant. I am not an uncritical consumer of WotC products.  I'll take  whichever lore I like.It'll happen outside my games.  The Blood War has no place in Eberron.   Sharn can have the weave and fundamentally I won't care.  Sharn's  already a technomagical setting - if magic comes through "The weave"  that won't be a problem.  As long as Mystra stays away.Indeed.  But the concept  of Mike Mearls bugging my table to find out what we actually play is  something that makes me shudder.  There are ways designers can support  me playing.  Variously:1: Give me a game that is playable out of the box.  (5e seems to do decently here).2:  Give me a game that doesn't have a lot of landmines especially at  higher levels (5e seems to fail here especially as the Math Mangle was  at the end)3: Give me something that inspires me.  I want raw  creativity and enthusiasm in the writing.  Callbacks are things I don't  care about.Their lore is a launching point.  But old, unchanged lore is a launching point I already have.   Trying to sell me all the old lore again would just, to me, be  patronising.  It wouldn't be inspiring in the slightest because I've  already gained the inspiration from that.  New takes on old concepts can  be.</blockquote>

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