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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nivenus" data-source="post: 6396168" data-attributes="member: 71756">My mistake. But as you will yourself admit, the Great Wheel was presented very early in D&D and so has a long history that does not make it "intrinsic" to Planescape or antithetical to the spirit of D&D. Indeed, the fact that it was included in one of the core rulebooks (even in appendix, which is also the case for 5e) indicates that while it may not have been considered "essential" or "required," it was definitely considered "core."ted within the Great Wheel framework.It was canon to Greyhawk, so I think it's fair to say it was canon to D&D, given Greyhawk's status as the preeminent "default" setting before 4e. I mean, how else are you going define canonical?Besides which, the foreword to MotP indicates it was intended to be fairly widely applicable:The intent is clear, the MotP is intended to be the definitive source for all things planar in 1st edition D&D, at least insofar as basic, widely held assumptions go. Now, I don't agree that all settings should use the cosmology. As I have said before, I hope 5e (like 3e) supports a wide number of potential models. But the fact remains that the Great Wheel (and the Manual of the Planes which detailed it) was intended to be widely applicable across all of 1e.That is what we do. But it's a rare thing for monsters of completely different natures to have the same name, would you not agree? Aside from chromatic and metallic dragons (which are still both essentially dragons) I'm not sure I can think of an example. For simplicity's sake it's better that they have different names. Which is what I expect WotC will do if they decide to incorporate both.It's not even remotely the same. One is a generic title that is expected to apply to different people. Another is a species name. It's more like having the word "octopus" apply both to an aquatic cephalopod and a flying mammal. Considering Planescape didn't exist in 1e (but the Great Wheel did) and wasn't supported in 3e, I find this questionable. Certainly the two are very closely connected, but so are a lot of basic assumptions of Greyhawk that have worked their way into non-setting specific material. The example of "Yondalla" several pages back is one such case, as is the existence of shared dwarven and elven deities across multiple settings. I'm not a huge fan of forcing everything to be core, but the truth is that Planescape is hardly unique in this category.Actually, I'm not sure that's accurate. The Blood War's a general rule for demons and devils relationships. I've actually seen more than a few stories where the two do occasionally work together (though rarely of their own accord). Honestly, I don't see it as any more difficult than imagining a scenario where devils and (celestial) archons might work together - not likely but not impossible either.Greyhawk seems generic only because the rest of D&D is built upon it. A lot of the tropes Greyhawk and generic D&D share were not altogether common in fantasy before either came along. Greyhawk's seemingly non-intrusive nature is just a result of it having been designed by Gary Gygax, who was also the chief designer of D&D.I say that's more for a lack of imagination in the use of elves and ogres than anything else. As I said above, I can see devils and demons working together for specific purposes. It's just not going to happen very often (nor do I think it should, given the prevalence of law vs. chaos as an equal conflict to good vs. evil).No, it's not. But it does strike me that the argument that "daemons were originally just another kind of demon" is pretty obviously false in light of the fact that the 1e lore reads closer to the 2e lore than it does the 4e lore.This all rests on premises that I don't really accept.To a certain extent you are correct. The characters of Marvel Comics and other long running continuities do essentially change as new writers and artists take the wheel. All the same, Earth-616 today is still Earth-616, not Earth-1610 or any of the other numerous Marvel universes. Moffat's Doctor Who may be markedly different from the original 1960s show with William Hartnell or even RTD's relatively recent take on the series, but it's still the same show and there is a sense of continuity from the beginning to the end, with callbacks, references, and recurring characters.But adaptations aren't quite the same thing because again, there's no shared continuity (and I mean this in the sense of "continuing" the story and the themes rather than a literal timeline of events). No one is expecting the X-Men movies to match the comics' storylines precisely (well, outside of a few really impractical fans). It is expected that events will be reinterpreted and reshaped to fit the movies' needs. Besides the fact that they are in some ways starting from scratch there's also the fact that the stories have to be molded to suit the purpose of an entirely different medium: film instead of comics.On the other hand, each edition of D&D is a pen and paper RPG, played in very much the same way (with a few changes) as it was decades ago. There's no transition from medium to medium. There's no need to "start from scratch" because you're retelling the same story. Instead, each edition simply built (or did, until 4e) on what the previous editions had already done. There were reinterpretations of course, but they were small and gradual changes, like those that occur (for example) when one writer leaves a comic book and is replaced by another. The changes you described in the Spider-Man comics occurred over decades of time, just as the changes from 1e to 3e did. The changes from 3e to 4e though, occurred immediately and were more akin to an adaptation, as they took what existed it and reimagined it as something else.I'm actually genuinely surprised. I don't agree with many of these criticisms, but I've hear them <a href="http://screenrant.com/x-men-movies-continuity-days-future-past/" target="_blank">all</a> <a href="http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/09/06/the-fd-up-timeline-of-x-men-first-class" target="_blank">the</a> <a href="http://io9.com/8-ways-x-men-movie-continuity-is-still-irretrievably-f-1581678509" target="_blank">time</a>.But that's beside the point.If new material says past material is "wrong" than yes, it does make the past material invalid.I think it depends to a certain extent whether you consider the lore part of an established world or not. Again, this comes back to the setting thing and while I get that's not an issue for you the fact remains that WotC and TSR have both historically implemented "core" lore in specific settings.It absolutely is a metaplot. The Dawn War and the details of 4e's cosmology in form a lot of what's going on in the world, not only in the default setting but in the Forgotten Realms as well. The conflict between elementals and immortals is considered just as essential in 4e as the conflict between demons and devils was in 2e/3e (indeed, the former's used to quasi-justify the latter). I don't see how you can say it isn't.But they objectively were and are. I honestly don't get how you see it otherwise. Yes, there's definitely a lot of allowance for a DM and players to reinterpret things as they wish, but if TSR and WotC aren't worldbuilding than they're wasting a lot of words doing something that looks an awful lot like worldbuilding.It's building on it by disregarding the following 2 editions. Again I'm not comfortable using the word "disrespect" here as that feels too judgmental to me. But absolutely there was a major shift to something different than what came before. D&D was, for lack of a better word, "rebooted."Considering that Acheron was described as a plane of floating cubes as early as the 1st edition Manual of the Planes I don't see how that's actually Planescape-specific.That isn't to say your interpretation isn't necessarily an valid one. But again, I don't get where the idea that all of this stuff originated with Planescape comes from when it clearly didn't.</blockquote>

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