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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6398113" data-attributes="member: 48965">I'm going to disagree... mainly based off the examples you cite below because honestly it seems like it's getting more and more difficult to parse exactly what you are trying to convey the difference is...So he's willing to sacrifice everything he has to get what he wants... that sounds like what are you willing to do to get what you want... not seeing the difference you were trying to convey here.  is there a reason a story like this couldn't play out in Planescape, because I'm not seeing why it couldn't? Ah Hero... one of my top 10 movies and a pretty good example of a person's beliefs shaping the world around them.  Replace the importance of Chinese Unification with say the MercyKillers belief in justice and retribution at the expense of all else and you can easily have a story where a character has to allow himself to be executed because an NPC, or even a "monster"is able to make him acknowledge that he has perpetrated an injustice on it, and that's just one example.  I have to ask once again why you think this couldn't play out in Planescape?Could you define "real"values, because I think some, maybe even all, of the factions are based around the things human beings think about and care about in the real world every day.  The belief in justice and retribution and it's surrounding moral quandaries... whether there really are gods and what the implications of them existing or not existing are (especially when creatures claiming to be them are bestowing powers on individuals),  Can perfection be achieved in the world and if so is the destruction of all that is imperfect necessary for this state, is corruption inherent in man and thus inherent in the the laws he makes, and so on... That could be because Planescape isn't about self-realisation (contrary to your own assertion that it is and then your following assertion that the setting does poorly at it.).  Nice tactic though, claim Planescape is about something (again without ever having read the actual setting books) Then claim that it does poorly at what you asserted it was about thus "proving" it's a poor setting...On another note, remember when I said you were becoming more and more difficult to parse... yeah the above, "It doesn't have the trajectory of history or society..."  Just tell me what that means in plain english.Here's what a quick google search turned up on ethics of self-realisation...The theory of self-realization is that a life of excellence is based on the actualization of human potentialities. In psychology, this is called "self-development."  This is achieved through one of the following...    1. becoming a well-rounded person, learning and doing a little of everything    2. concentrate on one major interest or talent and build other interests around it    3. people are born with innate purposes, ends, and goals, and excellence is achieved by fulfilling these natural human wants.In general Planescape's themes aren't concerned with perfecting the individual through one of the tenets of self-realization... they are concerned with shaping the entire multiverse through the actions and beliefs of the individual... it's outside themselves... in fact they don't even have to be a paragon of the ideal they espouse in order to enact it and promote it in the multiverse... so I think you're assertions are once again a little off.</blockquote>

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