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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6398345" data-attributes="member: 2067">The only agreement necessary is that the advocate feels that this is the best representation of what they're advocating for. Since feelings aren't wrong, we can all agree that this is what the advocate thinks is best about the setting, and judge it based on that. That's still not going to be everyone's cup of tea (it'll still be irreverent in the face of majesty, forex), but at least we'll be judging it on qualities it actually has even when it is ideal and not worry about quibbling about the preconceived notions baked into us by our varied experiences. It might be some weird unattainable platonic ideal, or not well reflected in the source material, or whatever, but at least we'll be talking about an experience we can agree on as a valid and representative experience. Anything less than that is essentially as strawman. "Oh, there was this bad experience someone had once, so I suppose the whole thing must be invalid since it can't prevent that." Those things aren't really opposed. Just because the cliffhanger at the end of The Thing is unresolved doesn't mean the setting of that movie doesn't go through some great change, including "everyone dies."There's thousands of drow in FR, but that doesn't mean that Drizz't's rebellion isn't a big change in the setting. FR has lots of cities, and some of them were left untouched by the Spellplague, and that doesn't indicate that the Spellplague wasn't real change. Just because Taladas never saw the Dragonarmies doesn't mean the War of the Lance was an illusion of change. So the Dragon might still rampage over the face of Athas, but the victory in Tyr was no real change? Planes shifting, factions warring, and demon lords ascending are at LEAST as significant as that."Oh, you succeeded in a revolution in Tyr? A shame the world is still a desert.""Oh, you overthrew the Dragonarmies? But what about that supplement that was hypothetical at one point where maybe they were coming back?"The changes didn't change the things you wanted to be changed, but they still happened and were significant. We don't need to burn the setting to the ground just to achieve some significant change (and FW, given the fan's reaction, certainly was a bit like burning the setting to the ground). I don't know how you can look at, I dunno, the Spellplague, and say "there's a big change!" and then look at FW and dismiss it as not real change. Your criteria are opaque if they're not arbitrary. So this is the first time you've mentioned anything about dramatic weight. "Dramatic weight" and "preservation of the setting's status quo" are two different (though potentially related) topics. I can probably go on for pages about either. In terms of dramatic weight, I dunno, if everything you've ever believed to be true about the universe was suddenly challenged, that would be pretty dramatic, and that's basically the center conflict in any PS campaign, so I don't know why you'd pretend it wasn't there. But again, I'm just seeing a blanket dimissal of counterpoints here, which leads me to believe that you're not so much interested in a real conversation, as you are in saying that anyone who likes PS is embracing or ignoring this Bad Thing about it that you've decided it has. You don't seem to want to entertain the idea that PS might not have this Bad Thing inherently, that your reason for not liking it might just be based on your limited experience and not objective reality, that maybe the people who have dang good fun in PS aren't delusional or ignorant about it. And it's kind of useless to hold a conversation with someone who isn't going to change their mind. So, you know, sorry you don't want any of my bacon, but I get that you don't, and that you think I'm a fool for enjoying it, but that's your bag. If you want to think I'm a fool, I can't stop you. Most I can do is enjoy this bacon. mmmmm, bacon.</blockquote>

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