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<blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 6403219" data-attributes="member: 7635">See, I've never seen D&amp;D in those terms. Perhaps because I came from different entry point into D&amp;D (by way of video games), but I always saw D&amp;D as defining its own thing. It had halflings, which didn't exist outside Tolkien and wasn't anywhere in the fantasy I read, yet they are the third most important non-human race! Or Vancian magic. Or different varieties of dragons (defined by color, element and alignment). And these were the things I found in my old Black Box in 1994! D&amp;D never has been good at emulating &quot;generic fantasy&quot;, it emulates D&amp;D. Where it has excelled was at being amazingly hackable. So even when I make my own world and stories, I acknowledge I'm still playing with all of D&amp;D's tropes, and if D&amp;D's tropes have come to mean &quot;kobold = dragon worshiper&quot;, then I either accept or hack it out. &nbsp; Wha? AD&amp;D doesn't describe the great wheel? Where did this come from? [ATTACH]64486[/ATTACH]That is all references in the Monster Manual for AD&amp;D 1e. 1977. I see specific references to other planes (adjacent on the GW), as well as descriptions of layers of Hell (abet brief). and 3.5 is EXPLICIT in it: Both in their intro paragraphs describe them as being form the Abyss/Hell, a Chaotic/Lawful Evil plane. I like it for the exact reason you hate it: I like the inter-connectivity of the monsters. It gives them a reason to be together. I don't need to explain why, nor do I have to feel like they are a bunch of &quot;roughly CR equal monsters&quot; living together like the Caves of Chaos. If I need to change it, I begin with &quot;in my campaign...&quot; or &quot;These group of X...&quot; I might never have used Salamanders (actually, in 17 years, I don't think I ever HAVE), but if I did, I have a great tie in to other fire-monsters (an efreeti leader, some fellow azer slaves) without relying on &quot;Well, they all like fire...&quot;As to the kobold issue with HotDQ: DUH! The whole adventure is about taking down a DRAGON CULT. If they DIDN'T worship dragons; they'd be completely out of place. (Here's a spoiler: everything in HotDQ worships dragons). Bad example man. Now, if the next AP (which deals with elemental evil) still had dragon-worshiping kobolds, you might have a right to complain, but you picked literally the worst example for a module to stake the &quot;kobold's shouldn't worship dragons&quot; claim.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Remathilis, post: 6403219, member: 7635"] See, I've never seen D&D in those terms. Perhaps because I came from different entry point into D&D (by way of video games), but I always saw D&D as defining its own thing. It had halflings, which didn't exist outside Tolkien and wasn't anywhere in the fantasy I read, yet they are the third most important non-human race! Or Vancian magic. Or different varieties of dragons (defined by color, element and alignment). And these were the things I found in my old Black Box in 1994! D&D never has been good at emulating "generic fantasy", it emulates D&D. Where it has excelled was at being amazingly hackable. So even when I make my own world and stories, I acknowledge I'm still playing with all of D&D's tropes, and if D&D's tropes have come to mean "kobold = dragon worshiper", then I either accept or hack it out. Wha? AD&D doesn't describe the great wheel? Where did this come from? [ATTACH=CONFIG]64486._xfImport[/ATTACH] That is all references in the Monster Manual for AD&D 1e. 1977. I see specific references to other planes (adjacent on the GW), as well as descriptions of layers of Hell (abet brief). and 3.5 is EXPLICIT in it: Both in their intro paragraphs describe them as being form the Abyss/Hell, a Chaotic/Lawful Evil plane. I like it for the exact reason you hate it: I like the inter-connectivity of the monsters. It gives them a reason to be together. I don't need to explain why, nor do I have to feel like they are a bunch of "roughly CR equal monsters" living together like the Caves of Chaos. If I need to change it, I begin with "in my campaign..." or "These group of X..." I might never have used Salamanders (actually, in 17 years, I don't think I ever HAVE), but if I did, I have a great tie in to other fire-monsters (an efreeti leader, some fellow azer slaves) without relying on "Well, they all like fire..." As to the kobold issue with HotDQ: DUH! The whole adventure is about taking down a DRAGON CULT. If they DIDN'T worship dragons; they'd be completely out of place. (Here's a spoiler: everything in HotDQ worships dragons). Bad example man. Now, if the next AP (which deals with elemental evil) still had dragon-worshiping kobolds, you might have a right to complain, but you picked literally the worst example for a module to stake the "kobold's shouldn't worship dragons" claim. [/QUOTE]

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