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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6403816" data-attributes="member: 48965">I'm uncertain as to why you say this, if anything I would say that D&D, The Great Wheel and Planescape for the most part have been pretty neutral as far as whether it focused on the conflict of good vs. evil or law vs. chaos... See and here you touch on one of my major issues with the 4e cosmology... IMO it doesn't focus more on chaos vs. law... It, for the most part, through trying to "simplify" alignment seems to conflate law with good and chaos with evil... which Moorcock doesn't do.  What is good or redeeming about chaos in 4e?  It is presented, again for the most part, as a destructive force... while the PoL civilizations are for the most part "good".  I like the 9 point alignment as opposed to 4e's because it makes it clear that chaos in and of itself can be good, evil or neither... just as law or order can be good, evil or neither... 4e blurs these lines and paints law in terms of good (lawful good) and chaos as evil (chaotic evil) there is no law that can be evil for some reason and there is no chaos that can be good... at least not by the alignments.  IMO, this isn't focusing on chaos vs. law it's playing evil vs. good in costumes...I don't want to get into a discussion of real world religion since it is against board policy, but again I disagree with your characterization of 4e.  The primordials and demons are the biggest representatives of chaos in 4e... yet they are painted as more evil than chaotic (with it's inherent good and evil qualities).  Look at Arioch in the Elric stories he is a Lord of Chaos but he has both good and evil traits,  the Lords of Law are the same.  Imo 4e and it's axis rarely if ever captures this aspect of law and chaos but The Great Wheel and Planescape do. The Lady of Pain is a more Arioch-esque figure than any of the primordials of 4e... The Factions, I'm struggling to think of one that could be categorized as good or evil, though many have the conflict of chaos (Xaositects, Free League, MercyKillers, etc.) and law (Harmonium, Fraternity of Order, etc.)  ingrained in them...  for the most part they aren't concerned with good or evil but instead various aspects of law and chaos... Anytime a fiend and an angel can sit in the same tavern together evil vs. good has certainly taken a backseat to other concerns...  Sigil a city of infinite portals, and because of The Lady of Pain a place where major conflicts around ideologies are (at least openly) is prohibited has echoes of Tanelorn at least IMO...  In fact the planes themselves are more reminiscent to the numerous planes hinted at and shown throughout Moorcock's various stories of his Eternal Champion...  He shows us planes that have more in common with weird fantasy (Both pulp and current) than greek myths and honestly that resonates more with me... I'm more a fan of Elric, Arioch, Gray Mouser, Sheelba, The Beast Lords, Corum, Hawkmoon,  Fafhrd, Kane and their weird worlds and cosmologies than I am of Perseus, Beowulf, King Arthur, Achilles, Cuchulain, Hercules and Sigurd and their mythic cosmologies.</blockquote>

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