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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6405439" data-attributes="member: 42582">Here are some extracts from your quotes:Elysium is the plane of ultimate good, unsullied by the concerns of hierarchy or anarchy . . .

the driving force of Elysium is goodness and goodness only. Order or anarchy - it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s for the good. . . .

The layers of Hades are called the glooms of Hades. This is an adequate description of the nature of evil at its worst. . . .From the point of view of a paladin, these descriptions of Elysium can't be true. Because from the point of view of a paladin, a concern for lawfulness/order does not sully good, but is a necessary condition of achieving it. The paladin doesn't regard him-/herself as less than fully good!Which goes to show that even the D&amp;D writers can't maintain the logic of their aligned cosmology when they have to describe it!The description of Hades makes no sense either: why is the gloom of Hades worse than the Abyss, where demons rend each other, plus visitors, limb from limb? How does the chaotic violence of the Abyss mitigate the evil there?(In each case, the same point could be made from the perspective of a CG bard or ranger, or in respect of the Hells.)From Gygax's DMG, p 41:Basically the degree of evil (faint, moderate, strong, overwhelming) and its general nature (expectant, malignant, gloating, etc) an be noted.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6405439, member: 42582"] Here are some extracts from your quotes: [indent]Elysium is the plane of ultimate good, unsullied by the concerns of hierarchy or anarchy . . . the driving force of Elysium is goodness and goodness only. Order or anarchy - it doesn’t matter, as long as it’s for the good. . . . The layers of Hades are called the glooms of Hades. This is an adequate description of the nature of evil at its worst. . . .[/indent] From the point of view of a paladin, these descriptions of Elysium [I]can't be true[/I]. Because from the point of view of a paladin, a concern for lawfulness/order does not [I]sully[/I] good, but is a necessary condition of achieving it. The paladin doesn't regard him-/herself as less than fully good! Which goes to show that even the D&D writers can't maintain the logic of their aligned cosmology when they have to describe it! The description of Hades makes no sense either: why is the gloom of Hades worse than the Abyss, where demons rend each other, plus visitors, limb from limb? How does the chaotic violence of the Abyss mitigate the evil there? (In each case, the same point could be made from the perspective of a CG bard or ranger, or in respect of the Hells.) From Gygax's DMG, p 41: [indent]Basically the [I]degree[/I] of evil (faint, moderate, strong, overwhelming) and its general nature (expectant, malignant, gloating, etc) an be noted.[/indent] [/QUOTE]

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