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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Viking Bastard" data-source="post: 6407127" data-attributes="member: 509">Here's a caveat: PS is the only place where I've ever used the Great Wheel as a cosmological framework. I don't think the GW is that important to PS, really--one could easily replace it with a different setup, as long as it features Outer Planes as Shaped by Mortal Belief. But I can't really comment on Nine-Point-Alignment-as-Cosmology outside of that context.When I've used alignment (non-cosmically), it's always been as political/value shorthand, and in PS I extended that directly to the Outer Planes. The belief comes first, shaping/creating the Outer Planes, so a LG plane exists only because enough mortals belief that LG is Best--enough people "vote" LG. To the LG voters, this is the ultimate good independent of the NG alignment--the NG attitude represents nothing to them, except maybe a different political/ethical viewpoint. If nobody believed in LG, there would be no LG outer plane. There being a LG plane isn't a cosmological given--it's just how things have evolved.Also, it must be considered how PS treats the Outer Planes not as monolithic entities, but more like cosmological solar systems. Each layer (satellite) of an outer plane (solar system) represents a slightly different viewpoint of the same idealized vision (the star). They are close enough to each other in their foundational beliefs that travel between them is easy, effectively creating a Mega-Plane. Philosophical nuances create layers.Basically, in the context of PS, I think you're viewing this upside down. Elysium does not dictate what Good represents to people--people dictate what Elysium represents, even though they may oblivious to the fact.This may strike you as nihilistic (which I get but disagree with) and modernistic (which it is), but that's not a problem for me as I like my D&D firmly anachronistic (it's part of the charm)..Taking this further, while PS remains mum on the greater history of the planes (something I understand bothers you), I've never taken the GW as having always been, it is merely the current status quo, one that has persisted as a stalemate for a Very Long Time, longer than any mortal can remember. My personal "fanon" is that the Basic D&D cosmology represents an older version of the same multiverse, one where the multitude of Outer Planes are less firmly formed and have not coalesced into the Mega-Planes of the GW. With 4e, I entertained the idea (though it never came into play in any way) that it represented the eventual evolution of the multiverse after my PS game blew it up..Some further personal context: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I have always treated Law vs. Chaos as the Big Ideals in D&D (and PS), with Good and Evil splintering away from that, not the other way around. This is probably partly because of RL personal values/views and partly because of my entry point to D&D being BECMI/RC, with it's Law vs. Chaos alignment structure.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I just find it a lot easier to 'grog' Law and Chaos than I do Good and Evil--which I tend to treat as Altruism vs. Selfishness--but for the most part I don't really know what to do with Good vs. Evil as a cosmic thing, partly because I don't like absolutes and partly because I cannot properly imagine them as idealized forces. I have always struggled with western duality as a concept. But alas, all attempts so far to put this properly into words have bumped up against board policy.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">And I don't care much for romantic fantasy, at least not in D&D, nor have any of my players ever noticeably gravitated towards it (there has, as far as I can recall, never been a paladin PC at my table... but oh-so-many rogues).</li> </ul></blockquote>

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