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<blockquote data-quote="ThirdWizard" data-source="post: 6408147" data-attributes="member: 12037"><p>But, objectively means that there is some kind of indisputable fact associated with a statement. Where's the proof that Good is better than Evil <em>in D&D</em>? I don't see it. So, what if I ask Mr. Lich von Puppykicker which is more objectively desirable, Good or Evil, and he says Evil. Why is Mr. Paladin deCuddles more of a reliable source? He's obviously just as biased on his thoughts as to Good vs. Evil as the lich. What makes one D&D character's <em>opinion</em> on which alignment is worth more "right" than another's?</p><p></p><p>Do you pass the same judgement on the Law/Chaos axis? Can you say "Law is objectively desirable"? If not, why? Because in D&D, there is no true difference between the G/E axis and the L/C axis.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course, at the same time parts of Mount Celestia are on the verge of falling into Mechanus. Does that mean that Law and Good aren't compatible? No, it just means that part of the plane is starting to change their ways. Maybe its due to external forces acting upon it. Maybe due to internal forces. Maybe both. At the same time parts of Mechanus are likely about to fall into Celestia, and parts of Limbo are about to fall into Arborea (Olympus). </p><p></p><p>Remember, it isn't ALL of Arborea falling into Limbo. It's a small town, or a small region. Or maybe a layer if things are going really <em>really</em> crazy (but that's the culmination of a campaign arc or full campaign there).</p><p></p><p>That's just how Planescape works. Everything is constantly shifting around, and PCs are thrust in the middle of things, making decisions that influence how things things turn out.</p><p></p><p>One game I've always wanted to play would be a game where Good is truly trying to triumph over Evil. The PCs would have the goal to move the 1st layer of Baator to Mechanus. It would play havoc with all kinds of evil machinations and be one of the largest blows ever done against Evil. However, halfway through, they find out that tanar'ri are at the same time about to manage to pull one of Arboea's layers into the Abyss. Now, they have to decide whether they should continue their plans and try to complete their pull of the layer of Baator, or if they should try to go save Arboea's layer. It would be an amazing decision point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, Planescape uses the 9-point alignment system really well in my view. I don't need it, but Planescape does. I played pretty vanilla LotR-esque games before I got the first Planescape boxed set. And, without it, I might still be playing LotR-like or "Greyhawking" the dungeon games that touch on none of the awesome ways to play that you and I agree on to make a good game. I guess what I mean to say is that I owe Planescape for all these ideas about how to craft a good game of D&D that you take advantage of. Without it, I wouldn't be running "sophisticated games" because I may never have been exposed to any of that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say that, in D&D, the Good vs. Evil divide is a matter of taste insofar as there is no correct answer between the two, except for the belief of individuals on that count.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ThirdWizard, post: 6408147, member: 12037"] But, objectively means that there is some kind of indisputable fact associated with a statement. Where's the proof that Good is better than Evil [I]in D&D[/I]? I don't see it. So, what if I ask Mr. Lich von Puppykicker which is more objectively desirable, Good or Evil, and he says Evil. Why is Mr. Paladin deCuddles more of a reliable source? He's obviously just as biased on his thoughts as to Good vs. Evil as the lich. What makes one D&D character's [I]opinion[/I] on which alignment is worth more "right" than another's? Do you pass the same judgement on the Law/Chaos axis? Can you say "Law is objectively desirable"? If not, why? Because in D&D, there is no true difference between the G/E axis and the L/C axis. Of course, at the same time parts of Mount Celestia are on the verge of falling into Mechanus. Does that mean that Law and Good aren't compatible? No, it just means that part of the plane is starting to change their ways. Maybe its due to external forces acting upon it. Maybe due to internal forces. Maybe both. At the same time parts of Mechanus are likely about to fall into Celestia, and parts of Limbo are about to fall into Arborea (Olympus). Remember, it isn't ALL of Arborea falling into Limbo. It's a small town, or a small region. Or maybe a layer if things are going really [I]really[/I] crazy (but that's the culmination of a campaign arc or full campaign there). That's just how Planescape works. Everything is constantly shifting around, and PCs are thrust in the middle of things, making decisions that influence how things things turn out. One game I've always wanted to play would be a game where Good is truly trying to triumph over Evil. The PCs would have the goal to move the 1st layer of Baator to Mechanus. It would play havoc with all kinds of evil machinations and be one of the largest blows ever done against Evil. However, halfway through, they find out that tanar'ri are at the same time about to manage to pull one of Arboea's layers into the Abyss. Now, they have to decide whether they should continue their plans and try to complete their pull of the layer of Baator, or if they should try to go save Arboea's layer. It would be an amazing decision point. Well, Planescape uses the 9-point alignment system really well in my view. I don't need it, but Planescape does. I played pretty vanilla LotR-esque games before I got the first Planescape boxed set. And, without it, I might still be playing LotR-like or "Greyhawking" the dungeon games that touch on none of the awesome ways to play that you and I agree on to make a good game. I guess what I mean to say is that I owe Planescape for all these ideas about how to craft a good game of D&D that you take advantage of. Without it, I wouldn't be running "sophisticated games" because I may never have been exposed to any of that. I would say that, in D&D, the Good vs. Evil divide is a matter of taste insofar as there is no correct answer between the two, except for the belief of individuals on that count. [/QUOTE]
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