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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6408634" data-attributes="member: 22779">But there is actually nothing to believe in.&nbsp; I can believe X to be good.&nbsp; You can believe X to be evil.&nbsp; If you get enough belief power behind you, you're right, if I get enough, I'm right.&nbsp; But, at the end of the day, good and evil are just subjective labels.&nbsp; Which doesn't make any sense based on D&amp;D alignment, where good and evil are not subjective.&nbsp; To be fair, in 2e, when Planescape was created, they actually did make a stab at the idea of good and evil being subjective.&nbsp; Spells like Detect Evil actually took into account your viewpoint.&nbsp; But, it was, on the whole, incoherent and haphazardly applied.&nbsp; But, 2e was the only edition to actually even try to make evil and good subjective.&nbsp; That concept was largely abandoned in 3e forward and certainly never applied in 1e.&nbsp; Again, I've got no real problem with Planescape on its own.&nbsp; I think in a different system, like say FATE or various other more hippy dippy story stick style games (which I really like), it would absolutely shine.&nbsp; Heck, isn't Exhaulted following a lot of the same basic tenets as Planescape without the alignment baggage?I suppose you could just eject alignment entirely, but, then, once you do that, the Great Wheel stops making a lot of sense.&nbsp; Why three separate (and apparently hostile) good planes?&nbsp; Why not many or just one?&nbsp; After all, there are a multitude of beliefs on what constitutes &quot;good&quot;, so, without the alignment framework, the Great Wheel comes off its axel.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />&nbsp; But, within the alignment framework, the premise of subjective alignment doesn't make any sense to me.&nbsp; Not within the context of D&amp;D alignment anyway.&nbsp; Either given a different alignment setup, or a game with no alignment set up at all and mechanics that actually deal with belief, i could probably get behind a Planescape game.&nbsp; Within the context of D&amp;D?&nbsp; Not so much.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6408634, member: 22779"] But there is actually nothing to believe in. I can believe X to be good. You can believe X to be evil. If you get enough belief power behind you, you're right, if I get enough, I'm right. But, at the end of the day, good and evil are just subjective labels. Which doesn't make any sense based on D&D alignment, where good and evil are not subjective. To be fair, in 2e, when Planescape was created, they actually did make a stab at the idea of good and evil being subjective. Spells like Detect Evil actually took into account your viewpoint. But, it was, on the whole, incoherent and haphazardly applied. But, 2e was the only edition to actually even try to make evil and good subjective. That concept was largely abandoned in 3e forward and certainly never applied in 1e. Again, I've got no real problem with Planescape on its own. I think in a different system, like say FATE or various other more hippy dippy story stick style games (which I really like), it would absolutely shine. Heck, isn't Exhaulted following a lot of the same basic tenets as Planescape without the alignment baggage? I suppose you could just eject alignment entirely, but, then, once you do that, the Great Wheel stops making a lot of sense. Why three separate (and apparently hostile) good planes? Why not many or just one? After all, there are a multitude of beliefs on what constitutes "good", so, without the alignment framework, the Great Wheel comes off its axel. :D But, within the alignment framework, the premise of subjective alignment doesn't make any sense to me. Not within the context of D&D alignment anyway. Either given a different alignment setup, or a game with no alignment set up at all and mechanics that actually deal with belief, i could probably get behind a Planescape game. Within the context of D&D? Not so much. [/QUOTE]

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