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<blockquote data-quote="Nivenus" data-source="post: 6411655" data-attributes="member: 71756"><p>I guess that depends on what you mean by "specific kingdom." To me, the Abyss and Gehenna aren't really kingdoms; their structure as described in most rulebooks that aren't specifically plane-focused is usually pretty loosely defined. What's the geography of the Abyss? Neither the <em>Player's Handbook</em> nor the <em>Monster Manual</em> really have much to say about that. Who are the dominant ultroloths? Well there's the General of Gehenna, but he's basically a mythic figure whose existence is kind of up to the player/DM's discretion but other than that the MM doesn't say.</p><p></p><p>I'll grant you that the Hells are a bit more clearly defined; there's a pretty consistent list of archdevils from 1e on with a few minor changes (usually near the bottom of the hierarchy) from one edition to another. But that's kind of the exception; most of the relationships between planar creatures are actually kind of loosely defined. Yeah devils don't get along with demons but neither do hobgoblins and orcs (or drow and <em>anybody</em>). Yeah, Graz'zt's a prominent demon lord who pops up all over the place, but Lolth is generally pretty popular as well (showing up in Greyhawk, FR, and Nentir Vale separately).</p><p></p><p>I also find it a bit odd that you seem to focus specifically on fiends. What about the celestial races? Angels are almost always defined as the servants of good gods; what if you want to have evil angels? That seems to me as much of a change to the basic lore as getting demons and devils to work together (which, despite the Blood War, does happen on occasion even in "generic" settings). What about dwarves? The 5e PHB and 3e MM (among other sources) define them as three distinct sub-races and describe their sentiments towards other races, such an enmity for goblins and a distrust of elves. Doesn't seem that different from describing the rivalries between different varieties of fiends to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000">Except that's not what you said:</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p></p><p>My point about Eberron was in specific response to that.</p><p></p><p>In any case, I think (ATM) 5e's lore is loosely defined enough that you can take it or leave it as you like. I agree that in general WotC should support a diversity of world-styles rather than pressing everyone to use the Great Wheel / World Axis / etc., but I don't see how having an assumed default cosmology contradicts that, particularly when the rules explicitly give you permission to use or dispose of it as you like.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nivenus, post: 6411655, member: 71756"] I guess that depends on what you mean by "specific kingdom." To me, the Abyss and Gehenna aren't really kingdoms; their structure as described in most rulebooks that aren't specifically plane-focused is usually pretty loosely defined. What's the geography of the Abyss? Neither the [I]Player's Handbook[/I] nor the [I]Monster Manual[/I] really have much to say about that. Who are the dominant ultroloths? Well there's the General of Gehenna, but he's basically a mythic figure whose existence is kind of up to the player/DM's discretion but other than that the MM doesn't say. I'll grant you that the Hells are a bit more clearly defined; there's a pretty consistent list of archdevils from 1e on with a few minor changes (usually near the bottom of the hierarchy) from one edition to another. But that's kind of the exception; most of the relationships between planar creatures are actually kind of loosely defined. Yeah devils don't get along with demons but neither do hobgoblins and orcs (or drow and [I]anybody[/I]). Yeah, Graz'zt's a prominent demon lord who pops up all over the place, but Lolth is generally pretty popular as well (showing up in Greyhawk, FR, and Nentir Vale separately). I also find it a bit odd that you seem to focus specifically on fiends. What about the celestial races? Angels are almost always defined as the servants of good gods; what if you want to have evil angels? That seems to me as much of a change to the basic lore as getting demons and devils to work together (which, despite the Blood War, does happen on occasion even in "generic" settings). What about dwarves? The 5e PHB and 3e MM (among other sources) define them as three distinct sub-races and describe their sentiments towards other races, such an enmity for goblins and a distrust of elves. Doesn't seem that different from describing the rivalries between different varieties of fiends to me. [COLOR=#000000]Except that's not what you said: [/COLOR] My point about Eberron was in specific response to that. In any case, I think (ATM) 5e's lore is loosely defined enough that you can take it or leave it as you like. I agree that in general WotC should support a diversity of world-styles rather than pressing everyone to use the Great Wheel / World Axis / etc., but I don't see how having an assumed default cosmology contradicts that, particularly when the rules explicitly give you permission to use or dispose of it as you like. [/QUOTE]
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