NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6412660" data-attributes="member: 2067">People care about lots of arbitrary things. I mean, you're on a 90+ page thread on a D&D message board. But what might help is seeing it as a thing with a changeable meaning. So "evil" means all the things described in the PHB when a PS campaign opens (as a design consideration, PS wants to base itself in D&D-isms). CE demons are creatures who, in general, act in line with the definition of CE in the PHB. When a know alignment spell pings CE, the characters know broadly what kind of action to expect. When they pick up a Book of Vile Darkness, they don't get harmed. Their souls are drawn to the Abyss, which is made up entirely of creatures who act the way CE is described in the PHB. That's the context the PC enters.Now, maybe the PC is a tiefling, told all their life that they were "born to be evil." That is, the characters in the setting expect this creature to act in accordance with their definition of evil. But the character, as a matter of belief, debates that label. They say, "No. I'm good. You're evil." They don't know from cosmology, they just know that people called them evil just before they had their ribs kicked in, and that people in the streets seem not to want to kick in the ribs of people the describe as "good." So that tiefling believes themselves to be worthy of that respect, and so is always and everywhere saying, "I'm good. I'm not evil. How I act is good. I know the truth of the multiverse -- I define good and evil. And what I do is good -- it is worthy of respect. And you are worthy of having your ribs kicked in." Such a tiefling goes on to act precisely how the PHB describes chaotic evil characters to act. When they start out in the campaign, they are labelled Chaotic Evil. A know alignment spell picks them up as such. They act much like the demons in the Abyss act. People say, "that tiefling adventurer is evil!" And the tiefling denies it. They believe themselves to be good. They dispute the spell results ("Everyone thinks I'm evil, but they're wrong. I'm good. It doesn't matter what some spell says."). They try to grab a Book of Exalted Deeds, and get burned, and say, "No. That book is wrong. It should be used by me." The player writes GOOD in big letters on their character sheet. [sblock=what happens to them?]That tiefling adventurer faces opposition to their belief in the form of people who believe different things. Adventure hooks might include:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> You become the target of clerics of Saint Cuthbert who hope to destroy you.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> You meet an angel who takes personal offense to you calling them "evil."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> You go to Mount Celestia and the archons there try to throw you out, calling you mad. </li> </ul>....etc.The PC's belief invites disaster.But they leave their influence. Because they are a PC, a protagonist, one whose belief shapes the multiverse (because otherwise they'd be an NPC who just basically agrees with the definitions), opinions start to change. The the aftermath of the attempted assassination, one of the clerics of Cuthbert starts do doubt their definition of good and evil. "Maybe that tiefling has kind of a point -- who are we to say that they're evil? Why not call them good?" The angel surrenders in the duel, "Very well. Call me evil, if that is what suits you," and suddenly everyone in Sigil is calling that angel "evil." And it spreads -- maybe there are other angels who are also evil? Maybe all angels are evil? I mean, just 'cuz some spell says something is true doesn't make it so, right? That's what that one guy says, and HE PUNCHED OUT AN ANGEL, so maybe he's worth listening to? The Archons who tried to throw you out...some of the perhaps lower-ranked members start wondering if maybe they are evil, maybe it was wrong of them to throw that PC out of a good place, maybe these things have different meanings. I mean, the tiefling was so sure of itself, so influential, so charismatic, so powerful. In aggregate, this starts to have an effect on the planes themselves. The DM notes that a group of tieflings in Sigil is calling itself The Good Guys now, and they're getting some respect, and everyone in their neighborhood agrees that when they mug the elderly and bash babies against the walls that this is Good. And now the know alignment spell gets confused. Perhaps the PC gains something like the Anarchist ability to mask their true allegiance, and now even the best divination won't give a result of "evil" when it reads you. Maybe everyone who signs up with The Good Guys has the same ability. This is 2e, so all the followers our tiefling fighter is attracting -- they're all Good Guys, all of them behaving exactly as Chaotic Evil is defined in the PHB, and none of them detecting as Evil. In fact, they don't even get hurt when picking up the Book of Exalted Deeds anymore. Who can say that they are evil? Next tier kicks in. First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. The tiefling PC's belief is gaining influence, their reputation as "that guy who punched out an angel" is gaining ground. A group of demons -- generals in the Blood War, maybe even a Demon Lord or a dark god -- decides to join the Good Guys. They do it for their own reason: now that none of them are considered Evil, the powers of the celestials that are designed to work precisely against evil cease to function. Detect Evil fails -- they're the Good Guys. Smite Evil fails -- they're the Good Guys. They do it perhaps for selfish reasons, but this selfish pursuit of your own desires is Good now, and they start to believe it as well. There are demons on the slopes of the heaven and in the gardens of Elysium. You are upsetting the multiverse. The powers of Heaven can no longer tolerate this. There are rumors of an alliance with the Rilmani, perhaps. After some time and some adventures that show this at work in the setting (you escort a group of demons into Bytopia, you lead a mission of the Good Guys to the elemental princes of what-was-once-known-as-"evil," you dive into the abyss to recruit another Demon Prince, perhaps a rival of the Demon Prince who offered their help), the Heavens try to end your little charade. They launch a holy war on the streets of Sigil.But this is Planescape, and belief matters. The PC's belief is that how they act should be defined as Good. As the armies mass in the streets, the multiverse responds, and the weight of belief shifts. The PC gains a further "faction power," and now fully reverses the good/evil axis for members of the Good Guys. Fiends are going around casting smite evil. Angels are casting Blasphemy. The PC uses the Book of Exalted Deeds against an antagonist archangel using the Book of Vile Darkness. And the rilmani are quietly pleased -- as long as there are opposing forces, they generally are. As the campaign comes to a close, the PC explores the ramifications of this flip, of this world that doesn't look much different except the labels. Perhaps some day the PC, old and wizened, will face off against an aasimar who was told that they were always "evil," and grew up believing that they were Good. Perhaps they even agree with that aasimar. Perhaps they abandon their belief as absurd in the face of it -- what have they really changed? Perhaps they shut down that aasimar fast, knowing the risk. Perhaps they gladly face someone who reminds them so much of themselves. Perhaps they live with the reality that changing these meanings just perpetuated the cycle of violence -- perhaps they're the vindictive type, and are totally OK with that. By the time the character retires, at the height of their influence, the Good Guys given honor and respect (and killing people for the fun of it, all while Good-aligned), the character has changed the ways the planes believe. They have struggled and achieved a change in definition. As the credits roll, the tiefling is perhaps seen giving the Book of Exalted Deeds to a newly Good god of torture and saying, "Re-bind this in human flesh for my amusement." [/sblock]I understand such a character isn't really struggling with the internal conflict that much (just a bit there at the end) -- something of a condition of me choosing to model the character on how the PHB describes Chaotic Evil, which is not necessarily a character archetype driven to much introspection or compassion. You could perhaps understand a character trying to live up to the standards the PHB calls "good" being a little more sensitive to some of the effects of their planar transformation (such as, if they were to try and re-define torture -- in certain circumstances -- as "good," and would need to negotiate where that line is). But the intent of describing this arc is to illustrate why a character might come to believe a thing, and what happens when they try to act on those beliefs to re-define the multiverse. The example character might, in actual play, make a more satisfying antagonist, come to think, if only because PLAYERS aren't likely to root for a guy who is allowing babies to be crushed at whim. The label doesn't mean it's not a valid life choice. It just means it matches what the universe currently defines as evil. That's a particular set of traits, but that set isn't necessarily a set that is undesirable or invalid. I'm not arguing that one MUST play PS if one wants this. I make no claims to exclusivity, only suitability. Planescape is made to support the idea of transforming the universe by acting according to one's convictions. Eberron is made to support the idea of magi-tech in a noir-infused post-war world. Greyhawk is made to support dungeon-crawling and military campaigns. You can also do all of those things in other settings. You can jam cthulu into FR if you want. Clearly there ain't much in any game setting -- or even any game system! -- that can get the label of "exclusive." Planescape offers a D&D setting that supports belief-motivated PCs who change the setting in their image. It works like that. It produces enjoyable games like that. I don't know of any other setting in current publication that does exactly that as well as PS does it. Of course, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I wouldn't define this struggle as "shades of grey." This by no means indicates that the choice is easy, merely that focusing on the decision between two good actions isn't really morally ambiguous. There's no question of virtuous intent. PS, by calling into question the very idea of a virtue (it is only virtuous as long as others dub it so, and others may not dub it so once the protagonist gets done), means that there is never any guarantee of virtuous intent. The focus isn't on trying be a good person, it's on living a life according to your convictions, and dealing with the fallout of that.</blockquote>

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