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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6413873" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Maps reveal the biases of the mapmakers. If someone considered the idea of the conflict between personal autonomy and social responsibility to be something that influenced the map they were making (something they wanted to depict), then Pandemonium would certainly be more like Arborea than it would be like Bytopia! Pandemonium and Arborea are all about the individual, your own personal experiences. Bytopia is outwardly focused, on the hard labor in a hard land that produces community cooperation. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It would probably still depend on what one thought of as nice and pleasant. Any map that separated upper and lower would still show the biases of the mapmaker. The githzerai monks might arrange the planes as nested "spheres", with Limbo being at the center as it is the most open to individual perspectives, and sticking Mechanus outside, as it is the most alien to the individual. A rogue modron might perceive of a map where every plane is just a cog in the Grand Machine except for Limbo, which is what the machine takes in, turning it to order. And a devil would probably put Hell at the top of a great mountain, and Celestia as a deep pit. Maybe they'd leave Arborea off entirely. ("No, there is no such place, you must have heard one too many Clueless babbling.")</p><p></p><p>This is all something that happens in PS anyway, and part of why the claim "the great wheel makes no sense without alignments!" seems a little short-sighted to me. Even without explicit mechanical alignment, it's easy to understand that one can still see the planes in terms of an axis of "empathy for others" / "exploitation of others" and an axis of "respect for external principles" / "respect for personal ideals," and that would still give us pretty much the Great Wheel. Scrubbing the labels off doesn't do much, functionally, to remove the planes' character from the meaning those labels have in the setting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6413873, member: 2067"] Maps reveal the biases of the mapmakers. If someone considered the idea of the conflict between personal autonomy and social responsibility to be something that influenced the map they were making (something they wanted to depict), then Pandemonium would certainly be more like Arborea than it would be like Bytopia! Pandemonium and Arborea are all about the individual, your own personal experiences. Bytopia is outwardly focused, on the hard labor in a hard land that produces community cooperation. It would probably still depend on what one thought of as nice and pleasant. Any map that separated upper and lower would still show the biases of the mapmaker. The githzerai monks might arrange the planes as nested "spheres", with Limbo being at the center as it is the most open to individual perspectives, and sticking Mechanus outside, as it is the most alien to the individual. A rogue modron might perceive of a map where every plane is just a cog in the Grand Machine except for Limbo, which is what the machine takes in, turning it to order. And a devil would probably put Hell at the top of a great mountain, and Celestia as a deep pit. Maybe they'd leave Arborea off entirely. ("No, there is no such place, you must have heard one too many Clueless babbling.") This is all something that happens in PS anyway, and part of why the claim "the great wheel makes no sense without alignments!" seems a little short-sighted to me. Even without explicit mechanical alignment, it's easy to understand that one can still see the planes in terms of an axis of "empathy for others" / "exploitation of others" and an axis of "respect for external principles" / "respect for personal ideals," and that would still give us pretty much the Great Wheel. Scrubbing the labels off doesn't do much, functionally, to remove the planes' character from the meaning those labels have in the setting. [/QUOTE]
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