NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6414206" data-attributes="member: 48965">Earlier I said I didn't have familiarity with AD&D 1e... so all I can go on is what you are posting, so no I wasn't misdescribing anything I was assuming you stated what was relevant.Wait how can "means" be independent, they have to ultimately be the "means" to something... You've already stated they can be a means for disregarding good or evil... and what is that good or evil replaced with?  A dedication to law or chaos, thus logically they are values that serve as a replacement for good and evil when those values are discarded. The statement was overly simplistic because I was using it in a broad sense to encompass a multitude of motives in the easiest and quickest way possible... there is nothing that forbids an S&S character from wanting to do good (though it is a rarity in the stories), the point is that whatever alignment they would fall into... it will be motivated by their own desires and wants... but I think you knew what i was getting at. So you're not really talking about Planescape, since it's a campaign setting with it's own variations on D&D alignment...Yes and if you'd ever actually read the campaign setting you'd know that it's possible to change those planes if one desired to... so it's a baseline to start your campaign with, nothing more. Well Elric, Corum and the rest of Moorcock's Eternal Champions are quite different from Conan (and that's why I stated I leaned more towards Moorcockian S&S than Howardian S&S),  Elric very much tries to change the morality of Melniboneans, of course he fails and totally embraces his people's morality when he ultimately destroys their civilization as retribution.  It is Elric's own morality and his insistence on trying to push this on his people that marks him as an outsider and causes much of his tragedy in the (chronologically) earlier stories. I always understood it to mean they outnumbered celestials but not all the races in the multiverse put together...  but then like I said I could be wrong.</blockquote>

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