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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity
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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3986087" data-attributes="member: 40961"><p>1: "What exactly is martial and non-magical about setting your sword on fire" is a ridiculous thing to say when the maneuver that sets your sword on fire is a supernatural ability. It says so right in the maneuver's description. You will find similar notes in almost every entry under the Desert Wind discipline.</p><p></p><p>2: The Devoted Spirit discipline might help you make a better case. The maneuvers in this discipline are not called out as supernatural. However, they're described as supernatural in the flavor text (constant references to channeling divine energy, auras of light surrounding you, etc), and the discipline is designed to mimic a paladin. I'm inclined to think that these were intended as supernatural, but that this note was left out by oversight.</p><p></p><p>3: We can test your theory, which as I read it, is that the crazy wuxia nature of Bo9S gives us information on what we're likely to see for martial powers in 4e. We can test it by referencing the martial, non supernatural, non supernatural flavored options in Tome of Battle. Since jumping has come up, lets look at Bo9S options that improve your ability to jump.</p><p></p><p>4: The option that improves your ability to jump is a Tiger Claw stance that grants +10 on jump checks, and lets you count as if you're running. Its called "Leaping Dragon Stance," and while it has a name that makes a lot of ENWorlders cry, its not supernatural. The +10 is typed as an enhancement bonus, too, so you can't stack it with most magical gear.</p><p></p><p>So, that's it. +10, and count as running. Counting as running dramatically increases your standing high jump, so this stance does give you a very large boost to your jump height. But, EVEN WITH that very large boost, you aren't likely to be doing anime jumps any time soon.</p><p></p><p>A decent character that uses the Tiger Claw discipline might have a pretty good jump check. While I gave an example character (plausibly a tiger claw user, since my example character had the Leaping Dragon Stance) that accomplished a 10' standing vertical by level 9, that character was unrealistic because it devoted every feat option it had to improving its high jump- an unlikely choice. So lets consider what a reasonable Tiger Claw using Warblade might have for jump checks.</p><p></p><p>He needs to be able to achieve a +39 (he can roll a 1 and jump 10').</p><p></p><p>19 Ranks</p><p>+10 Leaping Dragon Stance</p><p>+2 Blade Meditation: Tiger Claw (a reasonable choice for this character)</p><p>+2 synergy from Tumble</p><p>+6 strength bonus (starts with 18 strength, lucky guy)</p><p></p><p>That's a more plausible build for a nonmagical guy who doesn't use magic items that enhance his jumping skills. He'd need to be level 16 to accomplish this.</p><p></p><p>For comparison, a level 16 fighter without armor on can and with similar stats, but no feats invested, is going to have a jump check of +25 (19 ranks, +6 strength), letting him jump six and a half feet straight upwards, if he has a running start.</p><p></p><p><strong>All of this angst over three and a half feet, and no running start?</strong></p><p></p><p>I've practically forgotten the point of this by now, but basically, if you want to use Bo9S to make the case that D&D is turning into a superhero game, you're going to need to come up with better arguments. Using jumping as your example is a nonstarter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3986087, member: 40961"] 1: "What exactly is martial and non-magical about setting your sword on fire" is a ridiculous thing to say when the maneuver that sets your sword on fire is a supernatural ability. It says so right in the maneuver's description. You will find similar notes in almost every entry under the Desert Wind discipline. 2: The Devoted Spirit discipline might help you make a better case. The maneuvers in this discipline are not called out as supernatural. However, they're described as supernatural in the flavor text (constant references to channeling divine energy, auras of light surrounding you, etc), and the discipline is designed to mimic a paladin. I'm inclined to think that these were intended as supernatural, but that this note was left out by oversight. 3: We can test your theory, which as I read it, is that the crazy wuxia nature of Bo9S gives us information on what we're likely to see for martial powers in 4e. We can test it by referencing the martial, non supernatural, non supernatural flavored options in Tome of Battle. Since jumping has come up, lets look at Bo9S options that improve your ability to jump. 4: The option that improves your ability to jump is a Tiger Claw stance that grants +10 on jump checks, and lets you count as if you're running. Its called "Leaping Dragon Stance," and while it has a name that makes a lot of ENWorlders cry, its not supernatural. The +10 is typed as an enhancement bonus, too, so you can't stack it with most magical gear. So, that's it. +10, and count as running. Counting as running dramatically increases your standing high jump, so this stance does give you a very large boost to your jump height. But, EVEN WITH that very large boost, you aren't likely to be doing anime jumps any time soon. A decent character that uses the Tiger Claw discipline might have a pretty good jump check. While I gave an example character (plausibly a tiger claw user, since my example character had the Leaping Dragon Stance) that accomplished a 10' standing vertical by level 9, that character was unrealistic because it devoted every feat option it had to improving its high jump- an unlikely choice. So lets consider what a reasonable Tiger Claw using Warblade might have for jump checks. He needs to be able to achieve a +39 (he can roll a 1 and jump 10'). 19 Ranks +10 Leaping Dragon Stance +2 Blade Meditation: Tiger Claw (a reasonable choice for this character) +2 synergy from Tumble +6 strength bonus (starts with 18 strength, lucky guy) That's a more plausible build for a nonmagical guy who doesn't use magic items that enhance his jumping skills. He'd need to be level 16 to accomplish this. For comparison, a level 16 fighter without armor on can and with similar stats, but no feats invested, is going to have a jump check of +25 (19 ranks, +6 strength), letting him jump six and a half feet straight upwards, if he has a running start. [B]All of this angst over three and a half feet, and no running start?[/B] I've practically forgotten the point of this by now, but basically, if you want to use Bo9S to make the case that D&D is turning into a superhero game, you're going to need to come up with better arguments. Using jumping as your example is a nonstarter. [/QUOTE]
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