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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Belegbeth" data-source="post: 1568452" data-attributes="member: 17228">You obviously (and probably deliberately) misunderstood what I said.  In any case, the definition of "drama" was never at stake here.Brain phart on my part. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  I was tired when I wrote that, but what I was thinking was that when MOST of the opponents that PCs face are humans and humanoids (orcs, etc.), when they actually DO face a powerful creature like a dragon or balrog, that encounter is all the more exciting and dramatic.  In contrast, if PCs normally bring down a demon before breakfast, such powerful creatures cease to be remarkable and novel.  Uniqueness and strangeness are important ingredients for fantasy drama IMO.  And yes, it is not impossible to have unique and strange encounters in a high-magic campaign.  But is is harder.Except for the last bit, I don't see how anything you said here contradicts the points I have made.  You seem to have constructed a straw-man here for the purposes of burning it down.  I never claimed that it was impossible to create challenging and exciting adventures for characters in a high-magic setting.  I merely claimed that is was more difficult, and less similar to the way in which magic is used in most fantasy novels.  Consequently, establishing "dramatic tension" is more difficult in high-magic settings.  Not impossible -- I never claimed that -- but merely difficult, especially if people's assumptions about fantasy resemble those found in most fantasy novels.  As for the need for "evidence", the claim was speculative (never claimed otherwise).  Again, it was an inference based on the not implausible conjecture that most players' knowledge of fantasy will be drawn from fantasy novels (in which magic is sometimes powerful, but generally quite rare).  And consequently the kinds of challenges that players are likely to find intuitive and exciting are ones that do not rely on extensive knowledge and use of the DnD magic system.You yourself appear to recognize this when you state:"They [challenges] may be more accessible to many players, but that has more to do with the players themselves and what social and cultural expectations they bring to the table, rather than any inherent limitations of high-powered D&D."Right, and the social and cultural expectations are likely to be those drawn from fantasy literature, and their understanding of Western European society, myths and religion, etc.  Again, there may be many exceptions to this generalization.  But DnD clearly has a Western European cultural basis (with a few odd exceptions, like the monk), and has always been influenced by certain kinds of fantasy literature (especially Tolkien, Leiber, Vance, and Howard).  Other games might have different cultural and literary bases, and some people might modify DnD in order to fit other cultures.  Fine.  But that doesn't undermine the plausibility of my conjecture concerning "most players."In general I agree with this, and don't see how it challenges the points I made.  My only disagreement would be that in order to maintain some level verisimilitude in the game world (which, yes, enhances the enjoyment of the game for many players), explanations for why castles, diseases, couriers, etc. exist despite the presence of high-powered magic can be helpful.  Having magic common and powerful for the PCs (and relevant NPCs), while not affecting the wider society, can strain even the best players' suspension of disbelief.  Keeping magic rare enables a DM to maintain something like a "traditional" medieval society in his world, while justifying the exceptional abilities of characters and relevant NPCs.Never claimed it was impossible.  (Note that stating "x is more difficult than y" is not the same as stating "x is impossible.")  Again, you seem to make a point of constructing a straw-man in order to burn it down.  Touche!In summary, my main point was simple.  My preference for "rare magic" campaigns has to do with my fondness for fantasy literature -- namely, the kinds of challenges, adventures, and worlds that can be found in decent fantasy novels.  That is the kind of "feel" I aim for in my games, and the kind of drama and tension that my players enjoy.  Campaigns in which magic is common and high-powered simply do not feel like those kinds of stories.  Instead, such games tend to feel more like sci-fi games in which magic replaces technology.  (Note that some DnD players are perfectly happy with this approach.  And I never said that there was anything "wrong" with it!)  Maybe some people like yourself, Hong, can realize a great "fantasy" (and not "sci-fi") campaign in a setting where magic is high-powered and common.  I never denied this.  Maybe some people are not aiming to realize the kind of fantasy adventure found in Tolkien, Leiber, or Martin.  Good for them!  All I claimed was that such games would tend not to resemble the kind of fantasy novels I like (and that many other people who play DnD like as well).</blockquote>

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