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<blockquote data-quote="buzz" data-source="post: 3321328" data-attributes="member: 6777">FWIW, I probably wouldn't be having the player make two separate Diplomacy rolls in such quick succession. Heck, I'm not sure the player should be rolling if all the PC's saying is, &quot;I need to see the duke; it's important.&quot; We have yet to determine if Diplomacy is even an option.Anyway, the meat of the conversation with the guard in your example is still handled by one roll, and in even in your version, the outcome of that roll had virtually nothing to do with the result. The DM basically decided that no Diplomacy roll, no matter how good, was going to allow the PC to see the duke. Sure, then the player shifted to Bluff, but that doesn't change the fact that Diplomacy was a simple pass/fail. And, as far as we know, the DM could have pre-decided that Bluff's no use, either.Regardless, I'm not arguing that social interaction should always be an elaborate process mechanically. Ideally, you scale things depending on relevance.Irrelevant (no roll): &quot;Joe Commoner #4 is entranced by Shelia the Bard's enticing ways.&quot;Relevant (simple): &quot;There's a guard outside the duke's door. You can try etiquette, or see if you can bluff your way in.&quot;Critical (elaborate): &quot;As the entire council watches, the duke turns to you and demands you explain to him why he shouldn't go to war with your nation.&quot;As it is now, D&amp;D handles the last two situations identically: a pass/fail roll that doesn't necessarily produce a concrete result. As a DM, I want to use the rules in these situations, because I want both the player and the PC's skill in play, and dice should be involved, IMO. However, I can see how unappealing it can be, as D&amp;D is just not very robust about it.Then again, I don't really look for D&amp;D to serve as this kind of game. I believe it's fundamentally about killing things and taking their stuff. However, if they're going to do social mechanics at all, I'd like to see mechanics that are little more useful and fun.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="buzz, post: 3321328, member: 6777"] FWIW, I probably wouldn't be having the player make two separate Diplomacy rolls in such quick succession. Heck, I'm not sure the player should be rolling if all the PC's saying is, "I need to see the duke; it's important." We have yet to determine if Diplomacy is even an option. Anyway, the meat of the conversation with the guard in your example is still handled by one roll, and in even in your version, the outcome of that roll had virtually nothing to do with the result. The DM basically decided that no Diplomacy roll, no matter how good, was going to allow the PC to see the duke. Sure, then the player shifted to Bluff, but that doesn't change the fact that Diplomacy was a simple pass/fail. And, as far as we know, the DM could have pre-decided that Bluff's no use, either. Regardless, I'm not arguing that social interaction should always be an elaborate process mechanically. Ideally, you scale things depending on relevance. Irrelevant (no roll): "Joe Commoner #4 is entranced by Shelia the Bard's enticing ways." Relevant (simple): "There's a guard outside the duke's door. You can try etiquette, or see if you can bluff your way in." Critical (elaborate): "As the entire council watches, the duke turns to you and demands you explain to him why he shouldn't go to war with your nation." As it is now, D&D handles the last two situations identically: a pass/fail roll that doesn't necessarily produce a concrete result. As a DM, I want to use the rules in these situations, because I want both the player and the PC's skill in play, and dice should be involved, IMO. However, I can see how unappealing it can be, as D&D is just not very robust about it. Then again, I don't really look for D&D to serve as this kind of game. I believe it's fundamentally about killing things and taking their stuff. However, if they're going to do social mechanics at all, I'd like to see mechanics that are little more useful and fun. [/QUOTE]

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