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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 3331227" data-attributes="member: 22779">Not entirely though.&nbsp; Yes, the DM decided that Diplomacy couldn't work.&nbsp; That's covered in RAW anyway.&nbsp; It doesn't matter how friendly the guard is, he's not going to disobey orders.&nbsp; All diplomacy really does is shift attitude.&nbsp; So it is possible for the DM to decide beforehand that diplomacy won't really work.&nbsp; However, the player won't know this and should be trying first.OTOH, Bluff is a bit more specific.&nbsp; If you succeed at your bluff, the target &quot;reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe.&quot;&nbsp; Now, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax because the DM can't decide on autofail on this one.&nbsp; If the guard believes the bluff, then his actions should be determined based on that belief (leaving the question of poor DMing off the table for a moment).&nbsp; In the guard example, the guard believes the bluff, thus believes the PC should be allowed in to see the Duke.Now, the players could have chosen bluff right off the bat, but, that carries more risk.&nbsp; A failed diplomacy check doesn't usually carry too many penalties, other than making you a bit more unpopular.&nbsp; So, the players have different options to try to get the desired result.My problem is that I see DM's allow a fifteen minute conversation to pass, broaching several topics with point and counterpoint, and THEN roll the diplomacy roll, thus possibly negating the last fifteen minutes of play.&nbsp; IMO, that's not the best way to use the rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 3331227, member: 22779"] Not entirely though. Yes, the DM decided that Diplomacy couldn't work. That's covered in RAW anyway. It doesn't matter how friendly the guard is, he's not going to disobey orders. All diplomacy really does is shift attitude. So it is possible for the DM to decide beforehand that diplomacy won't really work. However, the player won't know this and should be trying first. OTOH, Bluff is a bit more specific. If you succeed at your bluff, the target "reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe." Now, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax because the DM can't decide on autofail on this one. If the guard believes the bluff, then his actions should be determined based on that belief (leaving the question of poor DMing off the table for a moment). In the guard example, the guard believes the bluff, thus believes the PC should be allowed in to see the Duke. Now, the players could have chosen bluff right off the bat, but, that carries more risk. A failed diplomacy check doesn't usually carry too many penalties, other than making you a bit more unpopular. So, the players have different options to try to get the desired result. My problem is that I see DM's allow a fifteen minute conversation to pass, broaching several topics with point and counterpoint, and THEN roll the diplomacy roll, thus possibly negating the last fifteen minutes of play. IMO, that's not the best way to use the rules. [/QUOTE]

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