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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7572798" data-attributes="member: 22779">That is a point to remember though when talking about &quot;tiers&quot;.&nbsp; Like the bard example, how much does adding a bard to the group improve the group as a whole?&nbsp; Between bardic inspiration and other goodies, it does make a considerable difference.&nbsp; The trick is, how do you calculate just how much difference is it making?&nbsp; That's going to be a judgment call.Hang on.&nbsp; But, there's the problem.&nbsp; No matter what, you can only convert 4 misses/short rest, 5 at level 7.&nbsp; You will miss more than 4 times/short rest meaning that you will not convert all your misses.&nbsp; And, since you are only converting 2/3 of your misses at best, in the 26 attack example we used before, you will still only hit 20 times - 17 for regular hits + 3 for precision attack.&nbsp; 3 extra hits cannot possibly equal the 30-40 d8 bonus damage that the ranger has done.No.&nbsp; It doesn't.&nbsp; You don't have to use the bonus action every round.&nbsp; You only use it when you've first marked something.&nbsp; At worst you've lost about 7 points of damage on a single attack (note that you will hit more often because you aren't using SS on that attack), which will be made for by subsequent mark damage.&nbsp; Are you assuming that you have to change marks every single round?Yes, but, you only do that once out of 3 combats.&nbsp; Every other combat you are averaging about 30 (ish) per round.&nbsp; Note that the ranger, either brand, has done an extra 10 points from colossus slayer and hunters mark or had at least one, possibly 2 more attacks (thus 6 attacks to your 6 attacks).See, I've played both the archer ranger and the archer fighter.&nbsp; The archer ranger just outdamages the fighter so badly.&nbsp; Of course, you're insisting on so many presumptions that I can see why you'd think this.&nbsp; You are presuming the following:1.&nbsp; A battlemaster fighter who ONLY spends superiority dice on Precision Strike.2.&nbsp; A ranger that never fights his favored enemy3.&nbsp; A group that uses feats (note, without feats, the ranger is head and shoulders above the fighter)4.&nbsp; A 2 rest adventuring day.To me, that's too many presumptions to come to your conclusion.&nbsp; Sure, if all the above is true, the fair enough, the fighter is edging out the ranger.&nbsp; Not by a whole lot, but, sure, a bit.&nbsp; And, not the revised ranger either because he's hitting a heck of a lot better than 66% when you gain advantage on your first round attacks most of the time.&nbsp; Change your presumptions and your argument doesn't work very well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7572798, member: 22779"] That is a point to remember though when talking about "tiers". Like the bard example, how much does adding a bard to the group improve the group as a whole? Between bardic inspiration and other goodies, it does make a considerable difference. The trick is, how do you calculate just how much difference is it making? That's going to be a judgment call. Hang on. But, there's the problem. No matter what, you can only convert 4 misses/short rest, 5 at level 7. You will miss more than 4 times/short rest meaning that you will not convert all your misses. And, since you are only converting 2/3 of your misses at best, in the 26 attack example we used before, you will still only hit 20 times - 17 for regular hits + 3 for precision attack. 3 extra hits cannot possibly equal the 30-40 d8 bonus damage that the ranger has done. No. It doesn't. You don't have to use the bonus action every round. You only use it when you've first marked something. At worst you've lost about 7 points of damage on a single attack (note that you will hit more often because you aren't using SS on that attack), which will be made for by subsequent mark damage. Are you assuming that you have to change marks every single round? Yes, but, you only do that once out of 3 combats. Every other combat you are averaging about 30 (ish) per round. Note that the ranger, either brand, has done an extra 10 points from colossus slayer and hunters mark or had at least one, possibly 2 more attacks (thus 6 attacks to your 6 attacks). See, I've played both the archer ranger and the archer fighter. The archer ranger just outdamages the fighter so badly. Of course, you're insisting on so many presumptions that I can see why you'd think this. You are presuming the following: 1. A battlemaster fighter who ONLY spends superiority dice on Precision Strike. 2. A ranger that never fights his favored enemy 3. A group that uses feats (note, without feats, the ranger is head and shoulders above the fighter) 4. A 2 rest adventuring day. To me, that's too many presumptions to come to your conclusion. Sure, if all the above is true, the fair enough, the fighter is edging out the ranger. Not by a whole lot, but, sure, a bit. And, not the revised ranger either because he's hitting a heck of a lot better than 66% when you gain advantage on your first round attacks most of the time. Change your presumptions and your argument doesn't work very well. [/QUOTE]

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