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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7573972" data-attributes="member: 6795602">I don't.  Their primary purpose is to make conscious an unconscious ally.  Great when it happens but generally spells like sleep or tasha's hideous laughter keeps that from happening in the first place.  And don't even mention 2nd level spells...What's the typical AC for a tier 1 bard?  1 or 2 more than a wizard?  I don't think a difference of 1-2 is going to save you or kill you.Expertise isn't that good in tier 1.  It's a +2 to two skills.  Jack of all trades is a +1 to all non-proficient skills.  They are very minor buffs for tier 1.  Now they grow in power as you level but for tier 1 they aren't something I'd write home about.I don't understand the debate.  Divination dice are much better.I also left out the wizards ritual casting advantage but which is strangely infinitely more useful than the bards song of rest. A typical wizard will have a high dex and high intelligence.  A good stealth and investigation are both very helpful there.  He has find familiar which is a huge perk for exploration (and it's a ritual, so no spell slot cost there).  He gets detect magic, another big exploration pillar spell.  He gets identify another big exploration pillar spell.  He gets unseen servant another exploration pillar spell.  He doesn't need to use any spell slots in the exploration pillar but he can if he desires.  Most importantly he gets enough spells known to really allow him to take rituals and still be well prepared for combat.  He gets 1-2 more spells per day than the bard in tier 1, thus he has less slots competing for those various goals. Wizards excel at rituals and they solve most of this.  Alternatively the wizard has more slots than the bard so using one or 2 in non-combat means he still has as many combat spells as the bard.  Bards suck at defense.  Light armor isn't a big buff.  Social they definitely dominate.  But then again the initial criticism was over me claiming wizards were better than bards in combat.  So let's deal with that.Out of combat wizards have rituals so they don't need to use their actual spell slots there most of the time.That leaves spell slots for in combat where wizards have more spells than bards and very good in combat subclass abilities.  The wizard has better tier 1 spell options for combat as well.Bards have a little more hp and ac and instead of spells may have 3-4 bardic inspiration dice to throw around.Is 3-4 bardic inspiration dice + vicious mockery better than 1-2 extra spells slots and divination diceEven if you conclude it is, would the difference be enough to drop the wizard down a tier in comparison?I do too.</blockquote>

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