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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FireLance" data-source="post: 2968854" data-attributes="member: 3424">I am firmly on the side of any design philosophy that aligns a creature's CR more closely to its actual performance in combat.That said, I do recognize that an interesting game needs more than just combat challenges, so perhaps what is needed is a system to determine the CR of non-combat challenges as well.Such a system exists for traps and hazards, where the challenge is not so much to defeat the trap in combat (although combat-like mechanics in the form of skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws, hit point and ability damage, etc. are used), but to survive it. This is where I would place challenges like the 1 HD creature with the death attack, and I would probably peg it higher than CR 1.A fiendish hawk is not much of a threat in combat. However, if part of the challenge is for you to find it (Hide +11) before you can fight it, it could be worth CR 1/2.Mediating a dispute between a 1st-level druid and a 2nd-level expert shouldn't require you to defeat either of them in combat (unless negotiations go badly wrong), but could still be considered a CR 1 challenge.Finding a well-hidden troglodyte lair could be considered a separate challenge from defeating them in combat, and should probably earn you a separate experience award.If a creature uses its abilities to lure you into a trap, you should earn experience for surviving the trap. If you subsequently defeat the creature, you should get experience for that as well.So, let a creature's CR be determined by its combat performance. If you need to unravel its lies, reverse its influence on innocent villagers, or neutralize its supporters, that should be a separate challenge, with a separate CR, and a separate experience award.</blockquote>

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