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The new spell creation rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 9009875" data-attributes="member: 6777737"><p>Now to finally finish my response to the OP. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree this is annoying -- it certainly was with hex and hunter's mark -- but I also don't really think it's anything more than <em>annoying</em>. They <em>could </em>print the spells twice in the book, once with the class and once in the spell list. That would be the best way to handle it, but also the most expensive. But printing class feature spells in the class listing probably makes the most sense if they have to choose one or the other.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Isn't it 6 changes as a 9th level spell at 17th level? 1 change at 4th level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 6th, 4 at 7th, 5 at 8th, 6 at 9th.</p><p></p><p>Also of note is that if you cast Modify Spell as a ritual, you can't upcast it. Upcasting is explicitly barred by the ritual spellcasting rules. I totally forgot this limitation even existed until someone on Reddit pointed it out to me, but it is a significant limitation. So the ritual Modify Spell is only one effect on one spell at a time, and it has to be cast again after any long rest.</p><p></p><p>The fact that without Craft Spell and Scribe Spell that you're limited like this is <em>critical</em> to the design.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Eh. Keep in mind that a character is paying 1,050 gp per spell level for this effect if they want it permanently, plus a significant amount of time. At least in the games I play, spell components of any variety don't come up <em>that</em> often. Sure, having a Still, Slient dispel magic, teleport, or misty step would potentially be powerful. But I'm not sure it's that powerful. And Sorcerers can already cast Careful charm person for 1 sorcery point. Why isn't that broken?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't agree. I think damage ending Concentration is something that primarily should affect NPCs. I think PCs are easy enough to incapacitate in other ways, and screwing over the NPCs by breaking their spells early is basically the entire purpose of the restriction. I think this is why they keep adding abilities to the game that make it all but guaranteed that you'll pass that Concentration save. I mean, how often do you really have the save be higher than DC 10? In my experience, it's not until early tier 3 that it really happens.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This has never been worth a level bump, even in 3e. It was always a +0 ability there.</p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure Thunder is the least resisted on the list. It's only limitation is the protection that silence spells offer. Necrotic is a pretty awful damage type in general, since many constructs and undead resist or are immune to it, but I agree it's usually restricted to divine or necromantic spells. If anything, though, I'd say it should use the same list of damage types as Transmuted Spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Range would be powerful with cones or lines, like Burning Hands or Thunderwave would be nuts. However, the spell specifically blocks all Close spells, which covers all the spells I know of where the range determines the area.</p><p></p><p>The only issue I see is that it seems really good with cantrips. And extremely good in siege warfare! But I am not necessarily opposed to that. Hiring a Siege Mage ought to pay off.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In 5e it's a short list:</p><p></p><p>Find Familiar (already a ritual)</p><p>Clairvoyance</p><p>Galder’s Tower</p><p>Glyph of Warding</p><p>Fabricate</p><p>Hallucinatory Terrain</p><p>Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum</p><p>Legend Lore</p><p>Planar Binding</p><p>Scrying</p><p>Contingency</p><p>Create Homunculus</p><p>Guards and Wards</p><p>Create Magen</p><p>Dream of the Blue Veil</p><p>Mirage Arcane</p><p>Simulacrum</p><p>Antipathy/Sympathy</p><p>Clone</p><p>Control Weather</p><p>Astral Projection</p><p></p><p>Some of those I don't know and are from books I don't have. The best spells I see are Clairvoyance, Scrying, and Contingency. Most spells that take this long to cast are already expensive in terms of gp, or are spells that already have major problems that demand other changes (e.g., Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Clone).</p><p></p><p>Fabricate looks abusive, and it is, but it's not really more abusive than it already was. Being able to make full plate with the spell is already an absurd money fountain. 18,000 gp a day is a lot (3 casts an hour for 8 hours at 750 gp profit per suit), but in practical terms it's not that much better than 2,250 gp a day and you can do that at level 8 (2 slots + 1 arcane recovery slot at 750 gp per suit). Both are an overwhelming amount of gold. Honestly, I think the problem is just that Fabricate needs to be changed to require materials equal to double the value of the object created. It's potency should be in time and flexibility, not in efficiency or value generation. Let it create at a profit at 7th level or something.</p><p></p><p>I guess I feel like making a spell a Ritual should be limited to spells of 5th level or lower. The game typically assumes you can't cast spells higher than 5th level very often. That seems like a design limitation they've had in the past, but there really are very few available spells for this modification. Is it even worthwhile?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Ally" is not a new term. It's not some truth sensor. It's whomever the creature decides. The monster ability Pack Tactics is where I remember first encountering it (see Wolf, Kobold).</p><p></p><p>It's also not a new effect to make AoE holes. Sorcerer's Careful Spell can do it at level 2. So can Evokers at level 3, even the playtest Evoker, with no cap on the number of times per day. Sure, those are written differently, but they're de facto the same abilities.</p><p></p><p>It is powerful, but I'm not sure it's <em>overpowered</em>. At level 7 it's limited to exactly one spell. At level 9, it costs 3,150 gp and at least a day of effort, and it's probably smarter to wait until level 10 so you can get two modificiations. Targetted Thunderburst is a very powerful modification, but it's also not cheap. If the party wants to invest in that, I don't think that's a bad thing, I guess? Like is fireball still <em>that</em> good at level 9?</p><p></p><p>I do agree that there are some concerns that Wizards with unlimited time and unlimited money can significantly boost their class abilities. But... I also think that's 100% on-theme for Wizards. I can imagine the party coming up against a thousand year old archlich, and he just has every spell in the book and they're all fully tuned and modified. Like holy cow no wonder Wizards hide away in towers doing endless research! No wonder they're infamous for becoming greedy! Look at the payoff!</p><p></p><p>As I said above, the fact that without Craft Spell and Scribe Spell that you're limited to one spell at a time is really critical to the design. My concerns are not with Modify Spell at all, and instead they rest entirely with Craft Spell. I think I would be more comfortable with Craft Spell if it were 6th level, but I think that's a balance issue.</p><p></p><p>Overall, I really like the design. Thumbs up from me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 9009875, member: 6777737"] Now to finally finish my response to the OP. :D I agree this is annoying -- it certainly was with hex and hunter's mark -- but I also don't really think it's anything more than [I]annoying[/I]. They [I]could [/I]print the spells twice in the book, once with the class and once in the spell list. That would be the best way to handle it, but also the most expensive. But printing class feature spells in the class listing probably makes the most sense if they have to choose one or the other. Isn't it 6 changes as a 9th level spell at 17th level? 1 change at 4th level, 2 at 5th, 3 at 6th, 4 at 7th, 5 at 8th, 6 at 9th. Also of note is that if you cast Modify Spell as a ritual, you can't upcast it. Upcasting is explicitly barred by the ritual spellcasting rules. I totally forgot this limitation even existed until someone on Reddit pointed it out to me, but it is a significant limitation. So the ritual Modify Spell is only one effect on one spell at a time, and it has to be cast again after any long rest. The fact that without Craft Spell and Scribe Spell that you're limited like this is [I]critical[/I] to the design. Eh. Keep in mind that a character is paying 1,050 gp per spell level for this effect if they want it permanently, plus a significant amount of time. At least in the games I play, spell components of any variety don't come up [I]that[/I] often. Sure, having a Still, Slient dispel magic, teleport, or misty step would potentially be powerful. But I'm not sure it's that powerful. And Sorcerers can already cast Careful charm person for 1 sorcery point. Why isn't that broken? No, I don't agree. I think damage ending Concentration is something that primarily should affect NPCs. I think PCs are easy enough to incapacitate in other ways, and screwing over the NPCs by breaking their spells early is basically the entire purpose of the restriction. I think this is why they keep adding abilities to the game that make it all but guaranteed that you'll pass that Concentration save. I mean, how often do you really have the save be higher than DC 10? In my experience, it's not until early tier 3 that it really happens. This has never been worth a level bump, even in 3e. It was always a +0 ability there. I'm pretty sure Thunder is the least resisted on the list. It's only limitation is the protection that silence spells offer. Necrotic is a pretty awful damage type in general, since many constructs and undead resist or are immune to it, but I agree it's usually restricted to divine or necromantic spells. If anything, though, I'd say it should use the same list of damage types as Transmuted Spell. Range would be powerful with cones or lines, like Burning Hands or Thunderwave would be nuts. However, the spell specifically blocks all Close spells, which covers all the spells I know of where the range determines the area. The only issue I see is that it seems really good with cantrips. And extremely good in siege warfare! But I am not necessarily opposed to that. Hiring a Siege Mage ought to pay off. In 5e it's a short list: Find Familiar (already a ritual) Clairvoyance Galder’s Tower Glyph of Warding Fabricate Hallucinatory Terrain Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum Legend Lore Planar Binding Scrying Contingency Create Homunculus Guards and Wards Create Magen Dream of the Blue Veil Mirage Arcane Simulacrum Antipathy/Sympathy Clone Control Weather Astral Projection Some of those I don't know and are from books I don't have. The best spells I see are Clairvoyance, Scrying, and Contingency. Most spells that take this long to cast are already expensive in terms of gp, or are spells that already have major problems that demand other changes (e.g., Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Clone). Fabricate looks abusive, and it is, but it's not really more abusive than it already was. Being able to make full plate with the spell is already an absurd money fountain. 18,000 gp a day is a lot (3 casts an hour for 8 hours at 750 gp profit per suit), but in practical terms it's not that much better than 2,250 gp a day and you can do that at level 8 (2 slots + 1 arcane recovery slot at 750 gp per suit). Both are an overwhelming amount of gold. Honestly, I think the problem is just that Fabricate needs to be changed to require materials equal to double the value of the object created. It's potency should be in time and flexibility, not in efficiency or value generation. Let it create at a profit at 7th level or something. I guess I feel like making a spell a Ritual should be limited to spells of 5th level or lower. The game typically assumes you can't cast spells higher than 5th level very often. That seems like a design limitation they've had in the past, but there really are very few available spells for this modification. Is it even worthwhile? "Ally" is not a new term. It's not some truth sensor. It's whomever the creature decides. The monster ability Pack Tactics is where I remember first encountering it (see Wolf, Kobold). It's also not a new effect to make AoE holes. Sorcerer's Careful Spell can do it at level 2. So can Evokers at level 3, even the playtest Evoker, with no cap on the number of times per day. Sure, those are written differently, but they're de facto the same abilities. It is powerful, but I'm not sure it's [I]overpowered[/I]. At level 7 it's limited to exactly one spell. At level 9, it costs 3,150 gp and at least a day of effort, and it's probably smarter to wait until level 10 so you can get two modificiations. Targetted Thunderburst is a very powerful modification, but it's also not cheap. If the party wants to invest in that, I don't think that's a bad thing, I guess? Like is fireball still [I]that[/I] good at level 9? I do agree that there are some concerns that Wizards with unlimited time and unlimited money can significantly boost their class abilities. But... I also think that's 100% on-theme for Wizards. I can imagine the party coming up against a thousand year old archlich, and he just has every spell in the book and they're all fully tuned and modified. Like holy cow no wonder Wizards hide away in towers doing endless research! No wonder they're infamous for becoming greedy! Look at the payoff! As I said above, the fact that without Craft Spell and Scribe Spell that you're limited to one spell at a time is really critical to the design. My concerns are not with Modify Spell at all, and instead they rest entirely with Craft Spell. I think I would be more comfortable with Craft Spell if it were 6th level, but I think that's a balance issue. Overall, I really like the design. Thumbs up from me. [/QUOTE]
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