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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7826057" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>That’s mostly bad reasoning, or just misreading the classes. </p><p></p><p>They’re only average at damage if you compare unoptimized rogues to the DPR darling builds. Even if an optimized Rogue was “average” in comparison to those builds you list, which it isn’t, that would still make it better than average compared to the whole field of classes. </p><p></p><p>Even the social tier comparison you make relies on false logic. The Bard and Rogue are in an entire league above every other class in the interaction pillar. That makes rogue top tier in interaction. </p><p></p><p>Beyond that, the Bard is only ahead of a social rogue like the Swashbuckler at some levels. Rogue gets Expertise sooner, and doesn’t have to give up combat prowess at all in order to excel at interaction, while the Bards reliance on spells means they very much do. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, from level 11 on, the Rogue is guaranteed success on the vast majority of checks in anything their trained in. No one else ever comes close to that. </p><p></p><p>Rogue subclasses like Scout, Swashbuckler, and Arcane Trickster (it’s hilarious that you think AT is the weakest subclass for rogue. Assassin, Inquisitive, Thief, at least, are all weaker than AT). Can exploit feats, playstyles, and class abilities like Hiding as a Bonus Action to get SA on basically every attack, very very rarely miss, rarely be meaningfully targetable past level 7 or so, and if feats are turned on they can double their damage output in <em>most</em> rounds, using tactics that don’t sacrifice accuracy at all, and so actually work as well in real table play as they do in theory crafting. </p><p></p><p>And a Reaction Attack doesn’t mean as much for any other class as it does for the rogue, so the fact other classes can take Sentinel and mage slayer doesn’t really mean much. </p><p></p><p>And if we are comparing MC builds, we can compare Swashbuckler/Vengeance Paladin and/or Hexblade, because crits mean a lot on a rogue. </p><p></p><p>If you’re gonna assume frequent Advantage on a -5/+10 build, you have to also assume it for a Rogue, and in fact the rogue should have it more frequently than most, since they can Hide as a bonus action, and can more easily move in and out of melee, get away from pursuers, etc. </p><p></p><p>A rogue can also make catch 22 tactics work more often, as with Booming Blade. It’s easy when you can move away and then hide, after BB smacking someone that isn’t close to anyone else. They can either move and take an extra hit of damage, or stay and do nothing/use a subpar attack. So, the idea posited here and elsewhere that BB is unreliable is laughable to me. </p><p></p><p>But the rogue is decidedly above average with or without it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 7826057, member: 6704184"] That’s mostly bad reasoning, or just misreading the classes. They’re only average at damage if you compare unoptimized rogues to the DPR darling builds. Even if an optimized Rogue was “average” in comparison to those builds you list, which it isn’t, that would still make it better than average compared to the whole field of classes. Even the social tier comparison you make relies on false logic. The Bard and Rogue are in an entire league above every other class in the interaction pillar. That makes rogue top tier in interaction. Beyond that, the Bard is only ahead of a social rogue like the Swashbuckler at some levels. Rogue gets Expertise sooner, and doesn’t have to give up combat prowess at all in order to excel at interaction, while the Bards reliance on spells means they very much do. Meanwhile, from level 11 on, the Rogue is guaranteed success on the vast majority of checks in anything their trained in. No one else ever comes close to that. Rogue subclasses like Scout, Swashbuckler, and Arcane Trickster (it’s hilarious that you think AT is the weakest subclass for rogue. Assassin, Inquisitive, Thief, at least, are all weaker than AT). Can exploit feats, playstyles, and class abilities like Hiding as a Bonus Action to get SA on basically every attack, very very rarely miss, rarely be meaningfully targetable past level 7 or so, and if feats are turned on they can double their damage output in [I]most[/I] rounds, using tactics that don’t sacrifice accuracy at all, and so actually work as well in real table play as they do in theory crafting. And a Reaction Attack doesn’t mean as much for any other class as it does for the rogue, so the fact other classes can take Sentinel and mage slayer doesn’t really mean much. And if we are comparing MC builds, we can compare Swashbuckler/Vengeance Paladin and/or Hexblade, because crits mean a lot on a rogue. If you’re gonna assume frequent Advantage on a -5/+10 build, you have to also assume it for a Rogue, and in fact the rogue should have it more frequently than most, since they can Hide as a bonus action, and can more easily move in and out of melee, get away from pursuers, etc. A rogue can also make catch 22 tactics work more often, as with Booming Blade. It’s easy when you can move away and then hide, after BB smacking someone that isn’t close to anyone else. They can either move and take an extra hit of damage, or stay and do nothing/use a subpar attack. So, the idea posited here and elsewhere that BB is unreliable is laughable to me. But the rogue is decidedly above average with or without it. [/QUOTE]
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