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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9140149" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>If you are saying that something happens and all your simplifications are in the direction of that happening then your model is at the very best highly dubious.</p><p></p><p>The thing is that those shields <em>do things</em>. And the warlock can't. So either you should upgrade everyone's damage dice for the easy like with like comparison or accept that the warlock is getting things skewed in their favour.</p><p></p><p>Wrong. Unless you're using the min-maxed point buy 15/15/15/8/8/8 array. And ... why would you? The <em>Standard Array</em> is 15/14/13/12/10/8 which with a floating +2 and +1 leads to 17/14/14/12/10/8. And if you <em>absolutely</em> want to min-max yourself in point buy you can go 15/15/14/10/8/8 and only end up with a single odd score.</p><p></p><p>A key thing to remember is the level curve. Given (a) that 90% of games end by level 10, and (b) levels 1 and 2 are deliberately ones you spend little time at I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the average character in a campaign (i.e. not a one shot) that doesn't instantly fizzle spends roughly half of their time at levels 4, 5, 6, and 7. (Or in the fighter's case 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, and 11). And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a +1 to your primary stat's bonus and one of the new half-feats are both <em>significant</em> bonuses. Therefore the 17 with the new feats is really useful in a way it isn't under 2014 rules.</p><p></p><p>A 14 con. And this is much more a matter of taste, but I <em>really</em> can't agree with a double 16 in Str and Con because your skills suffer and the fighter doesn't get much else to do out of combat. Between Str and Con you have a grand total of a single skill. that benefits from your two best stats. And there are three important stats for saves (Dex/Con/Wis) while adding to something else pretty important (Initiative, HP, Perception), and you're going to have to dump one of them if you only have three high stats. I don't think there's much between them in terms of importance and a +2 to one of these three stats (unless it's your primary stat) is pretty much worth a +1 to a different one. I therefore consider 14/14/12 to be almost exactly equal to 16/16/8 in terms of power for these three stats as long as they aren't your attack/casting stat.</p><p></p><p>On a tangent Monks I absolutely think should use the 17/16/14 array.</p><p></p><p>But Charger, Mounted Combatant, Sentinel, and Shield Master (or Defensive Duelist for dex based melee) are all good combat feats. As for being able to move again that depends what you've combo'd it with. Shield Master gives you the space for the follow up charge (or starts to give Advantage).</p><p></p><p>If you're comparing two hands vs two hands then use two handed weapons ... and the two handed feats. If you're using one hand vs one hand and not taking into account that one side has a shield and the other doesn't then you are quite literally making the fighter fight with one hand tied behind their back.</p><p></p><p>No you didn't. You made the fighter fight with one hand tied behind their back. You took away their best weapons and their best feats for options that gave them higher defence. I can tell you that the best DPR fighter will be a polearm + GWM fighter.</p><p></p><p>What I'm really not sure about to be honest is just what sort of impact the Vex-rapier has. I <em>suspect</em> given that they've stacked up 2d6 of extra damage on every hit (Thirsting + Hex) Vex is going to prove very very good. I'm also mildly curious now about a dex based warlock without Eldritch Blast or attack spells.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9140149, member: 87792"] If you are saying that something happens and all your simplifications are in the direction of that happening then your model is at the very best highly dubious. The thing is that those shields [I]do things[/I]. And the warlock can't. So either you should upgrade everyone's damage dice for the easy like with like comparison or accept that the warlock is getting things skewed in their favour. Wrong. Unless you're using the min-maxed point buy 15/15/15/8/8/8 array. And ... why would you? The [I]Standard Array[/I] is 15/14/13/12/10/8 which with a floating +2 and +1 leads to 17/14/14/12/10/8. And if you [I]absolutely[/I] want to min-max yourself in point buy you can go 15/15/14/10/8/8 and only end up with a single odd score. A key thing to remember is the level curve. Given (a) that 90% of games end by level 10, and (b) levels 1 and 2 are deliberately ones you spend little time at I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the average character in a campaign (i.e. not a one shot) that doesn't instantly fizzle spends roughly half of their time at levels 4, 5, 6, and 7. (Or in the fighter's case 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, and 11). And I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a +1 to your primary stat's bonus and one of the new half-feats are both [I]significant[/I] bonuses. Therefore the 17 with the new feats is really useful in a way it isn't under 2014 rules. A 14 con. And this is much more a matter of taste, but I [I]really[/I] can't agree with a double 16 in Str and Con because your skills suffer and the fighter doesn't get much else to do out of combat. Between Str and Con you have a grand total of a single skill. that benefits from your two best stats. And there are three important stats for saves (Dex/Con/Wis) while adding to something else pretty important (Initiative, HP, Perception), and you're going to have to dump one of them if you only have three high stats. I don't think there's much between them in terms of importance and a +2 to one of these three stats (unless it's your primary stat) is pretty much worth a +1 to a different one. I therefore consider 14/14/12 to be almost exactly equal to 16/16/8 in terms of power for these three stats as long as they aren't your attack/casting stat. On a tangent Monks I absolutely think should use the 17/16/14 array. But Charger, Mounted Combatant, Sentinel, and Shield Master (or Defensive Duelist for dex based melee) are all good combat feats. As for being able to move again that depends what you've combo'd it with. Shield Master gives you the space for the follow up charge (or starts to give Advantage). If you're comparing two hands vs two hands then use two handed weapons ... and the two handed feats. If you're using one hand vs one hand and not taking into account that one side has a shield and the other doesn't then you are quite literally making the fighter fight with one hand tied behind their back. No you didn't. You made the fighter fight with one hand tied behind their back. You took away their best weapons and their best feats for options that gave them higher defence. I can tell you that the best DPR fighter will be a polearm + GWM fighter. What I'm really not sure about to be honest is just what sort of impact the Vex-rapier has. I [I]suspect[/I] given that they've stacked up 2d6 of extra damage on every hit (Thirsting + Hex) Vex is going to prove very very good. I'm also mildly curious now about a dex based warlock without Eldritch Blast or attack spells. [/QUOTE]
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