Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6689720" data-attributes="member: 4937">I obviously disagree.Not at all.  I concur that a Chaotic Neutral can't be trusted to hold fast to anything.  But that's not the same as saying that they can be trusted to not do what they say all the time, much less this time.  Sure, a Chaotic Neutral can change their mind.  They can break their agreement if they want to, even just on a whim.  But that's not the same as saying that they will do so every time.  They are also free to keep their agreements just because they want to as well.But even to be arguing this I think misses the point.Sure.  But if you are compelled to rebel against the rules and order, that's just another way of being enslaved to them.  Chaos doesn't compel you to break the rules.  Chaos compels you to not treat the rules as superior to your own judgment, or to treat the purpose of the law as being superior to your own self-interest.  There is nothing that prevents two chaotics from making a personal agreement and shaking on it.  But they keep that agreement because they want to, because it is their self-interest to do so, not because they are compelled to keep their word.  The difference between a lawful and a chaotic is that the lawful will keep their word even once they realize that it is against their interest to do so, merely because they believe respect for the law compels them to do so.Sure.  I don't disagree with that, but that's not the same as saying that a CN person is compelled to not keep their word, or is compelled to be untrustworthy, or is compelled to betray friends.   Once again, there is a real and significant difference between CN and CE.   CN's don't believe that they need to take advantage of others, to be deceitful, to be treacherous in order to get ahead.  There are two ways in which that is false.  First, CN don't break 'every rule in the world', as that is a matter of nonsense.  If two rules are contradictory, what would you do?  If a rule said, "Behave in a chaotic fashion.",  how could you persistently violate that rule and still be chaotic?  And if you were compelled to do the opposite of what a rule said, wouldn't that be no different than being compelled to follow the rules?  You'd still be subject to the rules.  Chaotic aren't compelled to break rules simply for the sake of breaking rules.  Chaotics are compelled to ignore rules as unimportant.  Chaotic aren't acting against order for its own sake, but because they believe order is an unreasonable restraint on free will.  But they aren't (necessarily) irrationally violating every rule even when it is against their own interest.  (I concede that some chaotic might act like that if they choose to, but it's not compelled by the belief.)   More importantly, their are mores which chaotics adhere to regardless of being chaotic.  Even your imagined chaotic compelled to break every more is still adhering to some sort of more.  In the case of Chaotic Neutrals, they aren't breaking rules like "Don't murder.", just because its a rule.  Most CN's would think "Don't murder" is pretty good advice.  They don't respect it because it is a rule, but because they believe that it is in their own self-interest.  After all, every self wants to continue, and so it is in the best interest of each person to practice a passive ethic of reciprocity: "Don't hurt me, and I won't hurt you."   If CN's really were going around breaking rules like "Don't murder", just because it is a rule, what would distinguish them from CE?  CN's don't go around enslaving other people just because there is a law against it.  CN's in fact look at CE's as being rather misled, and being rather less chaotic than they are, precisely because CE's feel compelled to go around doing nasty stuff simply because... what?  True freedom would be freedom to not follow the rules at all, including this rule you made up that states: "Thou shalt not follow the rules."  They don't think the goal here is to replace the rules with a new set of rules.  They don't think the goal here is to replace the idea that there is one set of rules for everyone, with a new set of rules for everyone.  Yes, they do want a world without an overarching society judging their actions, without suppression of their personal freedom, and where every relationship is unique and personal.  But they aren't stupid.  It's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Stupid.I mean fundamentally, one of the basic problems you have is that are rendering every alignment down to a single stereotypical personality completely lacking in wisdom or any understandable motivation.  Being chaotic isn't about being irresponsible.  It's about not seeing being responsible to anyone but yourself as the reason for doing something.  You can still be responsible because you want to be.   Or you could choose to be irresponsible, and that would be fine too.   Being chaotic isn't about making all the decisions yourself or not following someone else.  It's about not feeling you have a duty to follow someone, and only following people because you think it is in your best interests.  A chaotic isn't someone who says, "Sorry.  I can't hire a guide to help me get where I'm going."  It's not some simple axiom like, "Never follow anyone else's instructions."   It's, "You never have to follow anyone else's instructions if they don't make sense to you."  They don't think they are actually sacrificing their personhood to arrange to let someone else make decisions that the other person is better able to make.  They are perfectly capable of respecting other people and following them because they choose to do so.  They just think they are actually sacrificing their personhood when they sacrifice their choice in the matter.  Your vision of CN gives them no choice in the matter.</blockquote>

Verification