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The "orc baby" paladin problem
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 3333258" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>So, pawsplay, if you can respect life and still kill evil things, how is killing these tadpoles not a justified action?</p><p></p><p>My "as objects" line was probably too exaggerated to be useful, but evil things should be destroyed, and these tadpoles, like an evil tome or evil rod, have no choice but to be evil. Maybe, like an evil tome, they can be "redeemed," but the paladin is under no obligation to do so. Ending their vile little existence is a positive action -- removing evil from the world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So it's completely Lawful to kill these things. They're monstrous races. Vigilante destruction of them is entirely within the bounds of law and order.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I somewhat disagree. You can still be evil and not act out your fantasy in that scenario, thinking of thousands of different justifications for why you're showing mercy. And the man who acts out his fantasy, while definitely evil, also doesn't need to have prey dangled in front of him like that, either. He would be out there acting out his fantasies on a daily basis.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The big issue I have with this is when the tables are turned and someone *wants* to do Good, but keeps thinking of reasons not to. "I'd have saved that burning orphanage, but I'm afraid of the governor's men." "I'd stand up to the wicked overlord, but I'm scared of getting caught." "I'd save the drowning sack of puppies, but its really cold and I might get pneumonia and die and then my children wouldn't have a father."</p><p></p><p>Such a person is neutral in my eyes, because they never *do* anything good. It seems that in your view, such a person would still be good, because they'll do something good tomorrow. You know, when it's convenient for them to do good.</p><p></p><p>I apply this to evil, too. Someone who *wants* to do evil, but keeps thinking of excuses not to, who never *does* anything evil, is not evil. They're neutral. They don't just do evil things when it's convenient for them to do evil, they do evil even when it's not convenient because they sincerely hold evil values and evil world views. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Without the drive and dedication to do good, you cannot be good in my eyes, despite having good intentions. Without the drive and dedication to commit evil, you cannot be evil in my eyes, despite having evil intentions. In both cases, you're neutral until you prove yourself otherwise. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Obviously, the OP's post shows that this, at least as far as he is concerned, isn't true. Evil babies do exist. They're right there, being babies, and being evil. As far as the OP's scenario is concerned, you're just...wrong. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 3333258, member: 2067"] So, pawsplay, if you can respect life and still kill evil things, how is killing these tadpoles not a justified action? My "as objects" line was probably too exaggerated to be useful, but evil things should be destroyed, and these tadpoles, like an evil tome or evil rod, have no choice but to be evil. Maybe, like an evil tome, they can be "redeemed," but the paladin is under no obligation to do so. Ending their vile little existence is a positive action -- removing evil from the world. So it's completely Lawful to kill these things. They're monstrous races. Vigilante destruction of them is entirely within the bounds of law and order. I somewhat disagree. You can still be evil and not act out your fantasy in that scenario, thinking of thousands of different justifications for why you're showing mercy. And the man who acts out his fantasy, while definitely evil, also doesn't need to have prey dangled in front of him like that, either. He would be out there acting out his fantasies on a daily basis. The big issue I have with this is when the tables are turned and someone *wants* to do Good, but keeps thinking of reasons not to. "I'd have saved that burning orphanage, but I'm afraid of the governor's men." "I'd stand up to the wicked overlord, but I'm scared of getting caught." "I'd save the drowning sack of puppies, but its really cold and I might get pneumonia and die and then my children wouldn't have a father." Such a person is neutral in my eyes, because they never *do* anything good. It seems that in your view, such a person would still be good, because they'll do something good tomorrow. You know, when it's convenient for them to do good. I apply this to evil, too. Someone who *wants* to do evil, but keeps thinking of excuses not to, who never *does* anything evil, is not evil. They're neutral. They don't just do evil things when it's convenient for them to do evil, they do evil even when it's not convenient because they sincerely hold evil values and evil world views. Without the drive and dedication to do good, you cannot be good in my eyes, despite having good intentions. Without the drive and dedication to commit evil, you cannot be evil in my eyes, despite having evil intentions. In both cases, you're neutral until you prove yourself otherwise. Obviously, the OP's post shows that this, at least as far as he is concerned, isn't true. Evil babies do exist. They're right there, being babies, and being evil. As far as the OP's scenario is concerned, you're just...wrong. :p [/QUOTE]
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