The Origin of a PoL setting

[Boarstorm]

Cross-posted from the WotC boards, http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1013679

I've been giving the Points of Light idea some thought lately, and I've stumbled across an idea I think is rather neat -- but horribly, horribly incomplete due to a tragic lack of imagination on my part.

There are all these old empires... the Arkhosians, the Tieflings' Bael Moran (or whatever. I can't recall the name off-hand, and my copy of W&M is several hundred miles away, I'm afraid), presumably several lost human civilizations, as well as others. We know why some of these empires have fallen and the reasons for others' fall has been lost to history. But they all seem to reach a certain level of development and then -BAM!- a century of rebuilding in the harsh and unforgiving wilderness.

Well, heck with it. Let's assume that either:
a) There was something MORE behind the fall of those Empires whose falls we do know about; or
b) The reasons behind ALL the lost civilizations are lost to history.

In addition, let's make the following assumption (regardless of a or b, above):
c) The fall of every single one of these empires is LINKED in some way.

Now then, with these assumptions my mind immediately jumps to a third party who is, in effect, purposely keeping the world in its PoL status for some nefarious reason of their own. Here's where I've hit a brick wall.

Who would want to ensure that the peoples of this setting never develop a real degree of civilization? Who would be capable accomplishing this goal? And, perhaps most importantly -- WHY? Why would they want to?

To answer this last question I considered other media and I've come up with two examples.

1) The Stargate: Atlantis/Wraith Model. Some group is purposely letting humanity gain population so that they can swoop in and "reap" it like a wheatfield. To make the entire setting analagous to a farm, the "Wraith" leave enough people alive to "replant the seed" and give us time to "grow" until there are enough of us to make a "harvest" worthwhile.

2) The Mass Effect/Reapers Model. In this model, some group just plain doesn't LIKE us. However, they're extremely alien and so tend not to notice our existence until we reach a level where we've gained a control over magic/technology/whatever-they-sense. This period tends to happen during an empire's growth, and alerts the "Reapers" to our presence, leading to a passable extermination effort.

Ok, obviously Sci-Fi enemies aren't a good fit for a fantasy setting. Especially not ones ripped wholesale from established and popular works. So how could we tie current races/monsters/ideas into the setting?

My initial take is that model 1 would be more difficult. About the only creature I can think of that would feed on demi/humanity like that would be vampires, and ... well, an army of vampires just seems lame to me. (Sorry if your opinion differs. )

Model 2, on the other hand, has a ready-made alien presence: Far Outsiders. I could see a Level 33 solo Cthulhu-like thing being the endcap of a campaign, breaking the cycle of destruction once and for all. And I can see armies of monstrosities squirming across the land, led by mind flayers captains and unspeakable generals. A bonus to this model is that you could incorporate the "canon" histories of the fallen empires and explain their fall due to mind control/manipulation of key figures in the government.

Still, something tells me there's a third option (and a fourth, and a fifth, and so on...), but for the life of me, I can't think of it.

There's got to be a reason why some more traditional race (such as drow, hobgoblins, demons, whatever) might want to keep the world from establishing a powerful military and economic presence.

But why?

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[DandD]

The human empire of Neroth (or however it is called in the implied setting) was toppled by an army of Gnolls commandered by the Ruler of Ruin.

The Dragonborn Empire was at an century-long war with the Tiefling-Empire, which drained all the ressources of both empires. One Eladrin Superkingdom simply vanished overnight, when it opened a gate to another plane of existence (perhaps becoming the elves of other fantasy settings, like for example the Forgotten Realms). The Illithids waged another eternal war with the Aboleths, till both empires crumbled.

It may simply be because of some catastrophe, or simply because by one point, that empire gets succeeded by another one.

Of course, the idea of a super-evil mastermind behind the ruination of all other kingdoms may still be possible, That Gnoll-Ruler callled the Ruler of Ruin is a perfect match for that.

 

[drjones]

the Rome, Byzantine, Egyptian, Maya etc. model: You have a good system and you take over large areas militarily and subjugate them. Something shifts, economy, weather, technology, corruption and the mighty empire finds it is having trouble affording to protect all those outlying states. It does not 'fall' so much as pull its sphere of influence back further and further as it's power wanes leaving frontier areas that once were pretty civilized but now are wild and dangerous.

The trappings of the great empire are still there but whatever circumstances drove them to conquer is gone.

There seems to be an intentional design decision with generic 4th that your DnD game does not have to mirror real life history at all, which is fine, but I don't know that that precludes having civilization fall apart in the same way. Maybe instead of becoming corrupt on bribes and fine living your aristocrats have been corrupted by infernal pacts or attempts to live forever? Result is the same, no attention payed to the hinterlands where the adventures happen.

 

[bramadan]

If you want a good reason for a serial empire destroyer, you can say they do it because PoL forces humans (and others) to push their best and brightest to become Heroes and the big bad guys collect heroes... or maybe they are not bad after all and they need Heroes for a reason that transcends importance of petty things like Empires and such.

 

[Boarstorm]

the Rome, Byzantine, Egyptian, Maya etc. model: You have a good system and you take over large areas militarily and subjugate them. Something shifts, economy, weather, technology, corruption and the mighty empire finds it is having trouble affording to protect all those outlying states. It does not 'fall' so much as pull its sphere of influence back further and further as it's power wanes leaving frontier areas that once were pretty civilized but now are wild and dangerous.

The trappings of the great empire are still there but whatever circumstances drove them to conquer is gone.

There seems to be an intentional design decision with generic 4th that your DnD game does not have to mirror real life history at all, which is fine, but I don't know that that precludes having civilization fall apart in the same way. Maybe instead of becoming corrupt on bribes and fine living your aristocrats have been corrupted by infernal pacts or attempts to live forever? Result is the same, no attention payed to the hinterlands where the adventures happen.

Drjones, I have to ask... does the name Shavoie mean anything to you?

Sorry to threadjack, but I figured if I was going to do it, it might as well be my OWN thread.

 

[HatWearingFool]

Well there is a theory (can't remember it's name off-hand) that the reason we haven't me other intelligent life with interstellar travel capability is simply that 99.9% of civilizations destroy themselves at a certain level of technological development (that occurs before the advent of interstellar travel). Ie. most civilizations wipe themselves out after developing nuclear power or giant particle colliders or nano-technology. This easily transfers over to a reality that replaces technology with magic.

A sci-fi book that I read a while ago involved a giant cloud that sat in deep space. Basically the cloud sat in stasis until it detected non-natural emissions (radio, energy, whatnot). It then activated and moved towards the source eventually engulfing and destroying it. At the end of the book you find out that the cloud is one of many "magnetic mines" created by an ancient star-faring civilization that just dropped them throughout their travels so that every other civilization was wiped out before it could become a threat. This is also easily mapped into a fantasy reality. Some ancient race/civilization created a magically monster/threat (perhaps the turrasque) that sits in stasis until some condition is met and it is activated and sent out to destroy it. It could even be something less obvious like an illusion of a higher power that slowly leads a civilization to it's doom.

Thanks for this thread it has sparked some great ideas for me.

 

[arscott]

The Reapers idea might do better if you eliminated the "And then eat them" from the calculus. What other reason might an overwhelmingly powerful force have to cull humanoids every few centuries? Slavery? Experimentation?

What about sanitation. What if the force behind the downfalls fears some specific plague, and destroys any civilization where the population becomes dense enough that an outbreak becomes likely?

 

[Ydars]

How about the idea, prevalent in a number of works of Fantasy, that races are kept in check by the actions of the gods, or elder races, because they fear their eventual rise to power? Essentially, these advanced races (advanced in the magical sense) suppress both technological and magical development because they fear their power being usurped.

Thus, periodically, they engineer the collapse of any civilisation that shows signs of becoming too powerful or dominant.

 

[eleran]

How about the idea, prevalent in a number of works of Fantasy, that races are kept in check by the actions of the gods, or elder races, because they fear their eventual rise to power? Essentially, these advanced races (advanced in the magical sense) suppress both technological and magical development because they fear their power being usurped.

Thus, periodically, they engineer the collapse of any civilisation that shows signs of becoming too powerful or dominant.

Thats along the lines of what I first thought of. Reading the OP it seemed to be describing basically scenarios where vast empires were carved out, went about their empire business for a few centuries and then devolved into Chaos. To me this screams some sort of chaotic force behind the scenes guiding things slowly and surely to make sure too much order never comes about. Now, as to who or what this guiding force is is a good mystery. Certain things leap to mind. Tharizdun is one of the first. Other gods or godlings devoted to chaos. Arioch perhaps (blood and souls...)?

 

[Cirex]

The Reapers idea might do better if you eliminated the "And then eat them" from the calculus. What other reason might an overwhelmingly powerful force have to cull humanoids every few centuries? Slavery? Experimentation?

What about sanitation. What if the force behind the downfalls fears some specific plague, and destroys any civilization where the population becomes dense enough that an outbreak becomes likely?

We got to wait till late 2009 to know the real reasoning behind the Reapers. Vigil was not very explicit about it. Saren didn't know that much about them neither.


When I think about PoL I think about Diablo setting, especially Diablo 2.