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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 5106196" data-attributes="member: 326">Howdy Khisanth mate! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I have been pondering over how I would handle the Titans, and by extension the Primordials in 4E, since the release of the edition. I have a fairly interesting framework in place but I imagine I'll change that before I take a crack at doing a full hierarchical breakdown (which may possibly be in Angels & Devils).I like the idea that a given Primordial (and I use that term to distinguish it from the 4E term for Titan) being the progenitor of their own race...sometimes perhaps the Titans (or even giants) of one race may become the progenitors of another 'lesser' race.For me the main annoyance of 4E giants/titans (etc.) is the level difference between Giants/Titans and Primordials.If I was going to detail Surtur in 4E then I am somewhat hamstrung by the Levels of the Fire Giant (L18) and Fire Titan (L21 Elite). Given that there is an extreme limit of +/-5 Levels in 4E we have a theoretical limit of Level 28 Solo for Surtur. Also the extreme limit is not very satisfying, so really you want to be looking at a +/-3 limit spread. ie. the difference between the lowest level monster and the highest. So the boundaries for Surtur really shrink to Level 24 Solo.Of course a Level 24 Surtur would be rubbish, so its clear that the monsters would not exist in the same encounter. That leaves us with a number of options:1. Use the Unit/Army rules within the Vampire Bestiary (quick plug). <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />2. Create new 'higher level' Fire Giants for Surtur's personal realm (or wholly different monsters?)3. Create a wholly new race of Giants (to which Surtur is the Primordial), of which the Fire Giants are merely offshoots. The best method is probably some blending of all three.Anyway, sorry for rambling, didn't want to derail your thread. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /></blockquote>

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