Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Origins of ‘Rule Zero’
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8178126" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Thing is, one can quite easily have both; and even have it work consistently within the fiction.</p><p></p><p>I do rather mourn the loss of whimsy in the more recent editions.</p><p></p><p>This runs into the old saw, here modified: if everything is fantastic, nothing is.</p><p></p><p>For "fantastic" to matter and really <em>be</em> fantastic, there has to be a base of prosaic for it to rest upon. This prosaic base is what some people (including me) label - however inaccurately - as realism. But yes, once that realistic base is established the fantastic can be embraced fully!</p><p></p><p>When I read "draw maps and leave blanks" I probably get a different impression than you do.</p><p></p><p>When I draw a map and leave blank space that blank space is there to be filled in later. Sometimes I've already got a vague idea of what might be there, other times not; but the blank space gives me places to put adventure sites, hidden cultures, odd forgotten features, and so forth that the PCs can discover as they travel, should they ever decide to try going through said blank space*.</p><p></p><p>The resolution mechanics don't impinge on this at all. The blank spaces remain between the paths the PCs have travelled.</p><p></p><p>* - in a game I played in, another player had a PC whose express motto was "Where the map is blank, I'll go"; and he did, at every opportunity. That PC forced the DM of that game to do a hell of a lot of mapping! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>That's more a question of DM style. Modules generally present monsters and foes as no more than a collection of stats and numbers, other than maybe one or two key elements and the "boss" if there is one; and it's on the DM to add "life" to them. Some DMs are better at this than others, and trying to add life to some monsters (e.g. oozes, zombies, lurkers above) is kind of a hopeless task in any case. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>It depends which questions you're asking, and in what framework.</p><p></p><p>Something as basic as asking the players during PC downtime what their PCs are doing next will (or should!) always get an answer the DM will then use in determining what happens. "We're going to hire a ship and sail south" is quite different from "We're going to check out that ruined castle we passed on our way into town" is different again from "We're going to take the winter off from adventuring and set about building ourselves a party base and stronghold". This all uses the established map and setting yet is still <em>asking questions and using the answers</em>.</p><p></p><p>The divergence comes in whether or not setting-defining player answers are expected to be used by the DM or not, and-or whether the DM is even going to ask questions that allow for such.</p><p></p><p>The basic play loop pretty much begins and ends with the fiction, even in combat.</p><p></p><p>Player: <declares <em>in-fiction</em> action for PC> <em>(I swing my mace at the Kobold)</em></p><p>DM: <adjudicates by whatever means, which might include insertion of mechanics if required> <strong>AND-OR</strong></p><p>Game: <adjudicates by forced insertion of player-facing mechanics if required> <em>(roll to hit, DM/game adjudicates success, roll damage)</em></p><p>DM: <narrates <em>in-fiction</em> result of declaration-plus-adjudication><em> (the Kobold staggers from your blow and looks about ready to collapse)</em></p><p></p><p>The only variant on this is when it's an NPC's turn, in which case the DM takes on her role as player of the NPC or monster and ends up narrating both the action declaration <em>(the dazed Kobold tries to back away defensively)</em> and, probably after some mechanics that might involve both DM and player, the result <em>(it stumbles over a fallen branch and is now lying prone in front of you)</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8178126, member: 29398"] Thing is, one can quite easily have both; and even have it work consistently within the fiction. I do rather mourn the loss of whimsy in the more recent editions. This runs into the old saw, here modified: if everything is fantastic, nothing is. For "fantastic" to matter and really [I]be[/I] fantastic, there has to be a base of prosaic for it to rest upon. This prosaic base is what some people (including me) label - however inaccurately - as realism. But yes, once that realistic base is established the fantastic can be embraced fully! When I read "draw maps and leave blanks" I probably get a different impression than you do. When I draw a map and leave blank space that blank space is there to be filled in later. Sometimes I've already got a vague idea of what might be there, other times not; but the blank space gives me places to put adventure sites, hidden cultures, odd forgotten features, and so forth that the PCs can discover as they travel, should they ever decide to try going through said blank space*. The resolution mechanics don't impinge on this at all. The blank spaces remain between the paths the PCs have travelled. * - in a game I played in, another player had a PC whose express motto was "Where the map is blank, I'll go"; and he did, at every opportunity. That PC forced the DM of that game to do a hell of a lot of mapping! :) That's more a question of DM style. Modules generally present monsters and foes as no more than a collection of stats and numbers, other than maybe one or two key elements and the "boss" if there is one; and it's on the DM to add "life" to them. Some DMs are better at this than others, and trying to add life to some monsters (e.g. oozes, zombies, lurkers above) is kind of a hopeless task in any case. :) It depends which questions you're asking, and in what framework. Something as basic as asking the players during PC downtime what their PCs are doing next will (or should!) always get an answer the DM will then use in determining what happens. "We're going to hire a ship and sail south" is quite different from "We're going to check out that ruined castle we passed on our way into town" is different again from "We're going to take the winter off from adventuring and set about building ourselves a party base and stronghold". This all uses the established map and setting yet is still [I]asking questions and using the answers[/I]. The divergence comes in whether or not setting-defining player answers are expected to be used by the DM or not, and-or whether the DM is even going to ask questions that allow for such. The basic play loop pretty much begins and ends with the fiction, even in combat. Player: <declares [I]in-fiction[/I] action for PC> [I](I swing my mace at the Kobold)[/I] DM: <adjudicates by whatever means, which might include insertion of mechanics if required> [B]AND-OR[/B] Game: <adjudicates by forced insertion of player-facing mechanics if required> [I](roll to hit, DM/game adjudicates success, roll damage)[/I] DM: <narrates [I]in-fiction[/I] result of declaration-plus-adjudication>[I] (the Kobold staggers from your blow and looks about ready to collapse)[/I] The only variant on this is when it's an NPC's turn, in which case the DM takes on her role as player of the NPC or monster and ends up narrating both the action declaration [I](the dazed Kobold tries to back away defensively)[/I] and, probably after some mechanics that might involve both DM and player, the result [I](it stumbles over a fallen branch and is now lying prone in front of you)[/I]. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
The Origins of ‘Rule Zero’
Top