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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7628289" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>How exactly are you losing player agency with the Warlord abilities? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> </p><p></p><p>Let's say that a wizard casts a spell on you that gives you Improved Invisibility. Have you lost agency because you are "forced" to play (temporarily) as a character who is invisible and takes advantage of that? If a cleric cast Bless on you, have you lost agency because you now have a bonus to attack rolls? If a bard gave you Inspiration, have you lost agency because you now feel compelled to utilize it? If a monk knocks an adjacent enemy prone and the enemy stands up, have you lost agency because that triggered an opportunity attack for you? Have you somehow lost agency if someone provides advantage with the Help action? Or maybe you have lost agency when you take advantage of the ranger's group travel? </p><p></p><p>Honestly, [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION], the grounds for your opposition to the Warlord and loss of agency is kinda absurd and unfounded by any actual sense or meaningful understanding "player agency." You even seem to recognize this when your sole point of "yes, but..." is that it would make you look like a dick for refusing, though that ship will have probably long since sailed for the rest of your group by then. </p><p></p><p><em>How?</em> <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> None of the 4e Warlord abilities dictate how other players view the Warlord. If they do exist, you will be cherry-picking an exceedingly negligible amount of their abilities in the context of the class as a whole. So really, that represents a hang-up of your own design that is only in your head and removed from the actual class as written. </p><p></p><p>Also could we have a list of class and subclass options that would cause you to get up and leave the game? Then we can see just how reasonable or absurd your position actually looks, especially if you want to be consistent with your reasoning.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7628289, member: 5142"] How exactly are you losing player agency with the Warlord abilities? :erm: Let's say that a wizard casts a spell on you that gives you Improved Invisibility. Have you lost agency because you are "forced" to play (temporarily) as a character who is invisible and takes advantage of that? If a cleric cast Bless on you, have you lost agency because you now have a bonus to attack rolls? If a bard gave you Inspiration, have you lost agency because you now feel compelled to utilize it? If a monk knocks an adjacent enemy prone and the enemy stands up, have you lost agency because that triggered an opportunity attack for you? Have you somehow lost agency if someone provides advantage with the Help action? Or maybe you have lost agency when you take advantage of the ranger's group travel? Honestly, [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION], the grounds for your opposition to the Warlord and loss of agency is kinda absurd and unfounded by any actual sense or meaningful understanding "player agency." You even seem to recognize this when your sole point of "yes, but..." is that it would make you look like a dick for refusing, though that ship will have probably long since sailed for the rest of your group by then. [I]How?[/I] :erm: None of the 4e Warlord abilities dictate how other players view the Warlord. If they do exist, you will be cherry-picking an exceedingly negligible amount of their abilities in the context of the class as a whole. So really, that represents a hang-up of your own design that is only in your head and removed from the actual class as written. Also could we have a list of class and subclass options that would cause you to get up and leave the game? Then we can see just how reasonable or absurd your position actually looks, especially if you want to be consistent with your reasoning. [/QUOTE]
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