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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr Simon" data-source="post: 3983157" data-attributes="member: 21938">As others have pointed out, 'Science' is a method, not a concrete entity. 'Science' is an attempt to understand the nature of reality by forming *testable* hypotheses, performing the necessary tests and re-evaluating based upon *observable* results. There is absolutely no reason why the phenomenon of 'magic' could not be studied using scientific method. One almost assumes that Wizardly magic in D&D *does* follow this pattern because spells can be researched and it is an INT-based procedure, whereas WIS-based magic relies more on losing the self and being receptive to outside forces. However, this does not need to be case. The study of Arcane magic could be as much a matter of pure luck and random stabs in the dark based upon unsound principles (much as historical alchemy or a lot of medicine would have been. Concepts like the Four Humours were based upon the *unscientific* principle of 'thinking of something that sounds like it might be right, and assuming that it is'. If it was written by an ancient Greek, all the better, must be true).What prevents this from being meaningful in many game world settings is that 'magic' has no true parameters that would be determinable in a scientific sense. Ars Magica is one of the few games, for example, that sets down what can and can't be done with magic.Glorantha is a world where mythology and magic take the place of physics in deciding how the world runs. Rivers run downstream not because of gravity, but because the river gods are all scions of the primal water god, and they are answering his call to plug the hole in the centre of creation. Except the Wrong Way River, who wasn't listening (all rivers originally being part of the sea probing upwards onto land, you see). In fact, Glorantha features the God Learners, who *are* individuals who apply scientific thinking to the myth-mechanic of the world. They conduct experiments along the lines of 'what would happen if we swapped two fertility goddesses of two different nations around?'. They are very powerful, but there are more powerful mystical forces who don't appreciate being treated like lab rats....*Technology*, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. It depends, as above, if magic is seperate to physics or, in the case of Glorantha, *is* the 'physics' of that world. Again in most cases it is not a meaningful question because the underlying nature of the universe is not defined. Eberron at least takes D&D magic and uses it as the basis for its 'technology'. The assumption ought to be that *that* is the way things will work and no other. If you have the Lightning Rail then you cannot also have an electric mag-lev train not because magic and 'science' don't mix, but because *instead of* electromagnetism you have Elemental Magic. In cases where magic is an add-on to 'real world' physics (such as Shadowrun), it has more of a mystical component. It needs a living mind, a living soul to craft it, and it is by its nature changeable and difficult to pin down. Shadowrun doesn't allow for bullets +1 or the like. Sure, you can fireball people but, particularly in the later incarnations of the setting, magic becomes much more an ephemeral force than simply another tool. I'm afraid I don't know Urban Arcana to tell how that takes the matter.You could, to return to fantasy realms for the moment, envisage a setting where Lightning Rails *and* electric maglev trains were possible. One requires a person sensitive to the flow of magic to create, the other requires knowledge. Assuming similar costings, and assuming there to be more Experts than there are Wizards, the 'real-tech' stuff would gradually push out the 'magi-tech' stuff. It could, theoretically, be an interesting setting.</blockquote>

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